"I ask then why do people say Israel must go through the Tribulation?" Jeremiah 30.6. paraphrased.

[Cameron143]

I am quite sure I have explained these things before (many times on here in the past several years; however, the first more so than the second) - perhaps, you have not had the opportunity to read any of those posts...?

I'm not opposed to hearing anything and if you can point me to the posts or a particular thread I'll have a look see.

 

[GaryA]

I am quite sure I have explained these things before (many times on here in the past several years; however, the first more so than the second) - perhaps, you have not had the opportunity to read any of those posts...?

This is one of the "early" posts on the subject (your first one):

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-end-of-times.84537/page-4#post-1396519

I am pretty sure that there are quite a few more after that...

EDIT: I made this post before reading your post #61 - I will see what else I can find that already exists. Otherwise, we may have to start a new thread. But, in any case, let us not derail this thread...

 

[GaryA]

"Come to pass shortly" should be seen through God's perspective.

Correct.

And, the Word of God was inspired and written from God's perspective.

And, the words/phrases - where they are found - should be studied in the context of the passage - and, with a careful consideration and understanding of the 'grammar of the language'.

 

[Cameron143]

This is one of the "early" posts on the subject (your first one):

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-end-of-times.84537/page-4#post-1396519

I am pretty sure that there are quite a few more after that...

EDIT: I made this post before reading your post #61 - I will see what else I can find that already exists. Otherwise, we may have to start a new thread. But, in any case, let us not derail this thread...

I read your explanation and even find it plausible. But it doesn't explain either of my other comments. I can figure out from your answer to the first what your probable explanations will be. I would simply return to the plain reading of scripture in defense.

 

[HeIsHere]

Correct.

And, the Word of God was inspired and written from God's perspective.

And, the words/phrases - where they are found - should be studied in the context of the passage - and, with a careful consideration and understanding of the 'grammar of the language'.

Agreed, as well, the problem is that there is always something lost in the translation.
We need to make allowances for that, too many understand scripture in a very mechanical way.

 

[GaryA]

@Cameron143 - here is a more recent - and "interesting" - post that I just found...

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/rapture-true-or-false.210286/page-2#post-5049559

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 - here is a more recent - and "interesting" - post that I just found...

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/rapture-true-or-false.210286/page-2#post-5049559

I appreciate the effort you have made. But even if you are correct, something beginning doesn't necessitate a long time between beginning and end.

 

[GaryA]

I appreciate the effort you have made. But even if you are correct, something beginning doesn't necessitate a long time between beginning and end.

That is determined by other things - not everything is always defined in a single word...

 

[GaryA]

@Cameron143 - go read my posts in this thread (currently, all of my posts in this thread are on the same page):

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...y-reason-for-the-end-time-tribulation.211840/

If you want to go straight to my first post - it is post #26:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...d-time-tribulation.211840/page-2#post-5115899

Hopefully, they will help "at least some" for now - as, I am about to get off of here for the night...

 

[Cameron143]

@Cameron143 - go read my posts in this thread (currently, all of my posts in this thread are on the same page):

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...y-reason-for-the-end-time-tribulation.211840/

If you want to go straight to my first post - it is post #26:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...d-time-tribulation.211840/page-2#post-5115899

Hopefully, they will help "at least some" for now - as, I am about to get off of here for the night...

Thanks for going to the effort expended to share all you have. I'm not convinced but I do understand where you are coming from.

 

[posthuman]

Do you believe the book of Revelation is chronologically ordered?

It's chiastic

 

[posthuman]

John's vision - and, the writing of Revelation - was before 70 A.D.

there's no evidence for that i know of, but abundant evidence that it was written around 95-96 AD

The early date for this book is chosen in order to make a certain interpretation fit, not because it is so.

 

[posthuman]

The 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24 is referring to a span of time from circa 70 A.D. until Armageddon.

awfully long time to be hiding in the mountains, hoping it's not sabbath!

 

[posthuman]

I also don't understand how someone who pierced Jesus will be present at His return 2000 years later.

not sure how "every eye will see Him" yet no record exists whatsoever of Christ having returned in 70-80 AD

 

[Cameron143]

It's chiastic

Parts of it certainly. But mostly it's repetitive. It shares 7 different perspectives of the same picture.

 

[posthuman]

Revelation was written before 70 A.D.

good read:

https://www.preceptaustin.org/revelation-intro-date

 

[Lifted_by_the_word]

I agree that God will fulfill every promise. I don't believe the church replaces Israel but is engrafted in. So I guess I have a continuation theology.
I also don't believe God's eternal kingdom was ever about land. It was typified in an earthly kingdom. It's the same way I view salvation. The children of Israel were saved and delivered out of Egypt. But their physical salvation was a picture of spiritual salvation. In the same way the children of Israel physically took the promise land in physical battles. But I believe the physical battles are pictures of spiritual warfare and how we are to spread the kingdom of God by employing spiritual weapons.
There is neither Greek or Jew any longer. The wall of partition has been torn down. There is the one new man...the new creation.
So I'm not looking for a physical city.
I realize this may not be your understanding and I respect that. Christians don't always agree.

Luke 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Why do people say God will reign in the physical state of Israel when the Kingdom of the world will become the Kingdom of the Lord,and that the kingdom of God is within?

 

[Cameron143]

Luke 17:20-21
And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Revelation 21:9-10
And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.

Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:

“The kingdom of the world has become
the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah,
and he will reign for ever and ever.”

Why do people say God will reign in the physical state of Israel when the Kingdom of the world will become the Kingdom of the Lord,and that the kingdom of God is within?

People are at different places in their understanding. I find it better to share truth and allow God to open a person's mind and heart.

 

[GaryA]

The 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24 is referring to a span of time from circa 70 A.D. until Armageddon.

The 'time of Jacob's trouble' of Jeremiah 30:7 and the 'time of trouble' of Daniel 12:1 are referring [specifically] to Armageddon - which is at the very end of the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24.

The 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24 is a very long period of time whereas the other is actually fairly short - and, exists within the Matthew 24 period of time at the very end of it.

I did not say this correctly - my apologies - the particular things mentioned are not 'at the very end' - they are in fact beyond the end of the 'great tribulation' of Matthew 24.

 

[GaryA]

good read:

https://www.preceptaustin.org/revelation-intro-date

better reads:

https://www.soh.church/when-was-revelation-written/
https://theendtimespodium.wordpress.com/2017/07/27/2456/
https://godeeperbiblestudy.com/when-was-revelation-written-and-why-is-it-important/

(each chosen from an internet search)

Disclaimer: It is not my intent to endorse or promote these sites or any 'preterist' leanings that may exist on these sites - I am only interested in truth represented in 'fact' and 'what makes sense' from a biblical and historical point-of-view. I chose these as "random samples" that discuss various reasons that support a pre-70AD date for the writing of Revelation.