Pre-Trib/Mid/Post Trib? We will know for sure (?) in a couple months
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Actually it does. The 70th week of Daniel is in two phases of 3 1/2 years each. The first phase is the Tribulation and the second phase is the Great Tribulation. The setting up of the Abomination of Desolation triggers the Great Tribulation (or desolations). And according to Daniel 9:27 the temple sacrifices are shut down in the middle of the "week" of seven years so that the Abomination of Desolation can be set up. Hence the temple must be in place BEFORE the Tribulation.
And he [the Antichrist, the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition] shall confirm the covenant with many for one week [seven years]: and in the midst of the week [after 3 1/2 years] he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate [the Abomination of Desolation], even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
@selahsays , In your post #17, you say,
ALL of us here (representing the various rapture-timing viewpoints) believe that ^
(however, take into consideration that "Second Coming" is not actually a biblical term from scripture itself, but rather is a term that is supposed to aid in our discussions... to distinguish it from our references when speaking about when He had come to earth to be born, and His earthly ministry leading up to the Cross--which people often term His "First Coming / Advent" [also a phrase not used in scripture]--These CAN serve as helpful aids in discussing these things, but can also muddy some things as well
).
Also, the Thessalonians did not have trouble understanding that fact (AC before Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth), and would not have required Paul to have written them a letter to explain such a thing. In his first letter to them, Paul had acknowledged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" shall come "like a thief IN THE NIGHT," and which Paul explains will be "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child (and that those are lead-ups to His "Second Coming" [to the earth], as we term it today, i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth--at Rev19).
But your "explanation" of what Paul is conveying in 2Th2, does not make sense of the text.
Here's some of why:
If that interpretation is accurate, why would Paul find it necessary to say the following:
"That ye be not soon [quickly] SHAKEN IN MIND [agitated / disturbed in mind], or be TROUBLED [disturbed / alarmed / thrown into a 'emotional uproar,' i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled); wanting to 'cry aloud, scream (passive) because terrified'],
neither by [by means of] spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as [purporting to be] from us
as that [purporting that / saying that] the day of Christ / rapture
is at hand / is near / is soon to take place"
For one, ^ this makes no sense for Paul to be expressing such a thing...
for Paul to suggest that such a response on their part from hearing [thinking] such a claim, seems ill-fitting and extremely unlikely (esp. given what we've just read about the Thessalonians in 1:3-4);
Secondly, it neglects to take into consideration that the false claim is saying something "IS PRESENT" (perfect indicative; "perfect tense" meaning, had started at some point IN PAST...; NOT that something was "at hand / near / soon to occur" but hadn't yet);
Thirdly, there are something like 27 versions that have it (v.2) as "the day of the Lord" [i.e. the earthly-located time-period of much duration, including JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, and including the period of "blessings" on the earth which follow the judgments], rather than "the day of Christ" [when we/the Church which is His body will be UP THERE "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"--a thing for which we are "eagerly awaiting" in anticipation (like the betrothed bride does), and which, for Paul to be saying anything about their supposedly being "ALARMED" by such a claim or thought (exhorting them not to be) seems to be thoroughly unfit with the rest of the context];
And lastly, recall, the claim (v.2) is that "[it] is ALREADY PRESENT [perfect indicative; transitive verb (in Grk)]," so for it to have been something that Paul understood would naturally be an "ALARMING" idea for them (read: believable and convincing rather than something far-fetched with absolutely ZERO evidence in their surroundings / experience / eyesight), the claim would better fit the context as saying:
--"purporting that [THE TRIBULATION PERIOD] is present" (given what we're told in 2Th1:4 about their present and VERY REAL [and very negative] experiences: "the persections and tribulaTIONS ye endure")
--rather than as saying, "that [THE RAPTURE] is present / has taken place" (i.e. zero evidence... zero ppl in their sphere had disappeared... a far-fetched claim with absolutely zero evidence to have elicited such a reaction of being "ALARMED" and no reason for Paul to have thought to caution regarding such a thing).
Again, "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" (not "is at hand / soon to take place")... this is what the "perfect indicative" (and transitive verb) conveys.
The interpretation you are suggesting, does not adequately "explain" the wording in verse 2 (about the false claim), as I see it...
... nor to well explain the remainder of Paul's "why"--what follows on, in the text:
"[3] ... because it/DOTL[/TRIB--v.2] will not be present, if not shall have come" ONE THING "*FIRST*" ['THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*'--the one Paul just spoke of in v.1!]... and [distinctly / consequently] the man of sin be revealed..."[and that's at Seal #1, the "kick-off" of the earthly-located judgments in Tribulation Period, same point as the first of "the beginning of birth pangs" i.e. Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE" (aka the "whose coming" of man of sin / AC / SEAL #1)];
Paul repeats THIS SEQUENCE [between these 2 distinct things] THREE TIMES in this text.
[The Departure / our Rapture *FIRST* before the DOTL / TRIB can be "present" unfolding upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS (including "the man of sin" "IN HIS TIME," i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period)]
ALL of us here (representing the various rapture-timing viewpoints) believe that ^
(however, take into consideration that "Second Coming" is not actually a biblical term from scripture itself, but rather is a term that is supposed to aid in our discussions... to distinguish it from our references when speaking about when He had come to earth to be born, and His earthly ministry leading up to the Cross--which people often term His "First Coming / Advent" [also a phrase not used in scripture]--These CAN serve as helpful aids in discussing these things, but can also muddy some things as well
).Also, the Thessalonians did not have trouble understanding that fact (AC before Christ's 2nd Coming to the earth), and would not have required Paul to have written them a letter to explain such a thing. In his first letter to them, Paul had acknowledged that the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the ARRIVAL of "the day of the Lord" shall come "like a thief IN THE NIGHT," and which Paul explains will be "exactly like" the INITIAL "birth pang" that comes upon a woman with child (and that those are lead-ups to His "Second Coming" [to the earth], as we term it today, i.e. His "RETURN" to the earth--at Rev19).
But your "explanation" of what Paul is conveying in 2Th2, does not make sense of the text.
Here's some of why:
If that interpretation is accurate, why would Paul find it necessary to say the following:
"That ye be not soon [quickly] SHAKEN IN MIND [agitated / disturbed in mind], or be TROUBLED [disturbed / alarmed / thrown into a 'emotional uproar,' i.e. very upset (alarmed, startled); wanting to 'cry aloud, scream (passive) because terrified'],
neither by [by means of] spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as [purporting to be] from us
as that [purporting that / saying that] the day of Christ / rapture
is at hand / is near / is soon to take place"
For one, ^ this makes no sense for Paul to be expressing such a thing...
for Paul to suggest that such a response on their part from hearing [thinking] such a claim, seems ill-fitting and extremely unlikely (esp. given what we've just read about the Thessalonians in 1:3-4);
Secondly, it neglects to take into consideration that the false claim is saying something "IS PRESENT" (perfect indicative; "perfect tense" meaning, had started at some point IN PAST...; NOT that something was "at hand / near / soon to occur" but hadn't yet);
Thirdly, there are something like 27 versions that have it (v.2) as "the day of the Lord" [i.e. the earthly-located time-period of much duration, including JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth, and including the period of "blessings" on the earth which follow the judgments], rather than "the day of Christ" [when we/the Church which is His body will be UP THERE "WITH [G4862 - UNIONed-with] Him"--a thing for which we are "eagerly awaiting" in anticipation (like the betrothed bride does), and which, for Paul to be saying anything about their supposedly being "ALARMED" by such a claim or thought (exhorting them not to be) seems to be thoroughly unfit with the rest of the context];
And lastly, recall, the claim (v.2) is that "[it] is ALREADY PRESENT [perfect indicative; transitive verb (in Grk)]," so for it to have been something that Paul understood would naturally be an "ALARMING" idea for them (read: believable and convincing rather than something far-fetched with absolutely ZERO evidence in their surroundings / experience / eyesight), the claim would better fit the context as saying:
--"purporting that [THE TRIBULATION PERIOD] is present" (given what we're told in 2Th1:4 about their present and VERY REAL [and very negative] experiences: "the persections and tribulaTIONS ye endure")
--rather than as saying, "that [THE RAPTURE] is present / has taken place" (i.e. zero evidence... zero ppl in their sphere had disappeared... a far-fetched claim with absolutely zero evidence to have elicited such a reaction of being "ALARMED" and no reason for Paul to have thought to caution regarding such a thing).
Again, "IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE" (not "is at hand / soon to take place")... this is what the "perfect indicative" (and transitive verb) conveys.
The interpretation you are suggesting, does not adequately "explain" the wording in verse 2 (about the false claim), as I see it...
... nor to well explain the remainder of Paul's "why"--what follows on, in the text:
"[3] ... because it/DOTL[/TRIB--v.2] will not be present, if not shall have come" ONE THING "*FIRST*" ['THE DEPARTURE *FIRST*'--the one Paul just spoke of in v.1!]... and [distinctly / consequently] the man of sin be revealed..."[and that's at Seal #1, the "kick-off" of the earthly-located judgments in Tribulation Period, same point as the first of "the beginning of birth pangs" i.e. Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE" (aka the "whose coming" of man of sin / AC / SEAL #1)];
Paul repeats THIS SEQUENCE [between these 2 distinct things] THREE TIMES in this text.
[The Departure / our Rapture *FIRST* before the DOTL / TRIB can be "present" unfolding upon the earth with its JUDGMENTS (including "the man of sin" "IN HIS TIME," i.e. the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period)]
The temple can be built and the sacrifices started in the first half of the seven years.
Yep.
I agree. They dont need the Temple to start the Sacrifices of Red Heffers. They just need an Altar on the Threshing floor. They have the Heffers and the Altar, it can be in place withing 3 hours and that would begin Enforcing the Old Covenant for 7 years. They can build the Temple around the Altar, which will take 3.5 years.
You better hope your correct. If your wrong, you are guilty of misleading Christians by stating something that is false.
I even doubt your eschatology is correct.
I say -------Are you really sure about that ????????-----I think there is definately scripture on this -------that says when the Temple will be standing ------
https://www.bible.com/reading-plans/15022-temples-in-the-holy-scriptures/day/3
THE TEMPLE OF THE TRIBULATION
This temple of the Tribulation will be built in the days before or during the first part of the coming Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21), the 70th week of Daniel, by the Jewish people in Jerusalem. We read in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 about this temple where the Antichrist, the man of sin, will declare himself to be God and will sit in the temple as God and pretend that he is God
The book of Revelation refers to the measuring of the temple in Jerusalem, but also to the desecration of it: Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months” (Rev. 11:1, 2).
The apostle John received the prophecy of the third temple 25 years after Herod's temple (the second temple) was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Therefore, it can only relate to a future temple.
This third temple will be defiled after 3½ years by the false messiah (Antichrist): “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (prophetic week, seven years); But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” (Dan. 9:27). This time is also known as Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7), or as the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21, 22; Rev. 7:13, 14). In the middle of the seven-year great tribulation, the Antichrist who initiated the seven-year covenant will break it. This period is one of the most documented periods of time in the entire Bible (Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5). This has vast implications for the people of Israel in the end times.
The Lord Jesus Christ in close correlation to Daniel referred to the horrific image of the Antichrist that would be erected in the temple just before the start of the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years of the Tribulation). “Therefore, when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ (the false messiah and his image) spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (temple) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt. 24:15-21). In the end time, the disillusioned Jews in Israel will have to flee quickly because the Antichrist will in the middle of the Tribulation, after he breaks his covenant, try to obliterate the Jews when they refuse to worship him or his image.
Paul also refers to the desecration of the temple in the middle of the tribulation when the Antichrist declares himself God. He describes this man of sin as: who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God (2 Thess. 2:4).
Revelation 11 refers explicitly to the temple service and the desecration of the temple in the tribulation period. Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months” (Rev. 11:1, 2). The courtyard is the place where trading took place. It was given to the Gentiles where they, under the rule of the Antichrist, will trample the holy city for forty-two months. This period is a measured period under divine determining. It is 1260 days or three-and-a-half years.
The full implications of the erecting of this idol in the temple are shown in Revelation 13. It will entail the forced worship of the Antichrist as the self-proclaimed god of this world, as well as a certain death sentence for anyone who would refuse to worship him as God. The false prophet will give the image occultic life: He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (Rev. 13:15). The false prophet will not only bring down fire from heaven, but he will also deceive the inhabitants of the earth saying that they are to worship the Antichrist (Rev. 13:12-14). Those who will refuse to worship the Antichrist will pay with their lives, others with their income (Rev. 13:16-18).
When the Antichrist declares himself God, he will not only prohibit all Jewish sacrifices, but also all other religions (Rev.17:1-7, 16-18). All other forms of worship will be strictly prohibited and punishable by death.
From all the Biblical data it is clear that the third temple, the one in the days of the Great Tribulation, will soon be built in Jerusalem, because Bible prophecy clearly states that a temple will exist in the end time. Sacrifices will also be brought at that time, which means that the temple service will be reinstated by the spiritual leaders of the nation of Israel (Dan. 9:27). The Antichrist will exploit this situation for his own gain (Matt. 24:15-21; 2 Thess. 2:3-9; Rev. 11:1, 2; 13:4-18).
I say -----this above agrees with what David Jeremiah said in his article -------
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/this-...-temple-before-the-rapture?devdate=2022-11-04
But according to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4). In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).
-----I say ---------So you may not agree with these people and that is your right to do so ---
but there is scripture on the Construction of the temple in the last days -----especially in Rev 11
where did I state this is all going to happen. so many of you here have elementary English comprehension reading levels. No where did I state in my OP this is 100% going to happen. Try re-reading the OP and come back with the proper understanding.
Date-setting fits the definition of insanity: doing something over and over and expecting a different result each time.
I know it's not wise to take Scripture verses out of context and read them in isolation, but Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour of His return. This is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark at least. I don't remember if it's in Luke or not. Jesus also warned against date-setting in Acts 1 where He told His disciples to not concern themselves with dates set by the Father (with regard to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel). Rather, they were to focus on spreading the Gospel.
TL;DR: Date-setting is an exercise in futility.
I know it's not wise to take Scripture verses out of context and read them in isolation, but Jesus said that no one knows the day or hour of His return. This is recorded in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark at least. I don't remember if it's in Luke or not. Jesus also warned against date-setting in Acts 1 where He told His disciples to not concern themselves with dates set by the Father (with regard to the restoration of the kingdom to Israel). Rather, they were to focus on spreading the Gospel.
TL;DR: Date-setting is an exercise in futility.
OK GUYS IM JUST FUNN WITH YOU,,,,NO BODY KNOWS WHEN HE COMMING BACK, JUST THE FATHER,
seeing this tells me the DATE could be quicker:
talk about the Image of the Beast which is able to function like a human...
talk about the Image of the Beast which is able to function like a human...
Here is what you stated in your OP.
You definitely specified a date (2030) and you also stated, 'a very high likelihood the year of our Lord's return'.
It does not have to be an event that has a 100% chance of occurring. Though, 'a very high likelihood', does not leave much wiggle room.
I know exactly what you said.
We were told to look for the signs.
Luke 21:25
“There will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves, people fainting from fear and the expectation of the things that are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
Try reading Luke 21 instead of Matthew 24.I say -------Are you really sure about that ????????-----I think there is definately scripture on this -------that says when the Temple will be standing ------
https://www.bible.com/reading-plans/15022-temples-in-the-holy-scriptures/day/3
THE TEMPLE OF THE TRIBULATION
This temple of the Tribulation will be built in the days before or during the first part of the coming Great Tribulation (Matt. 24:21), the 70th week of Daniel, by the Jewish people in Jerusalem. We read in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 about this temple where the Antichrist, the man of sin, will declare himself to be God and will sit in the temple as God and pretend that he is God
The book of Revelation refers to the measuring of the temple in Jerusalem, but also to the desecration of it: Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months” (Rev. 11:1, 2).
The apostle John received the prophecy of the third temple 25 years after Herod's temple (the second temple) was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD. Therefore, it can only relate to a future temple.
This third temple will be defiled after 3½ years by the false messiah (Antichrist): “Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (prophetic week, seven years); But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.” (Dan. 9:27). This time is also known as Jacob's trouble (Jer. 30:7), or as the great tribulation (Matt. 24:21, 22; Rev. 7:13, 14). In the middle of the seven-year great tribulation, the Antichrist who initiated the seven-year covenant will break it. This period is one of the most documented periods of time in the entire Bible (Dan. 7:25; 9:27; 12:7; Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:14; 13:5). This has vast implications for the people of Israel in the end times.
The Lord Jesus Christ in close correlation to Daniel referred to the horrific image of the Antichrist that would be erected in the temple just before the start of the Great Tribulation (the last 3½ years of the Tribulation). “Therefore, when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ (the false messiah and his image) spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (temple) For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. (Matt. 24:15-21). In the end time, the disillusioned Jews in Israel will have to flee quickly because the Antichrist will in the middle of the Tribulation, after he breaks his covenant, try to obliterate the Jews when they refuse to worship him or his image.
Paul also refers to the desecration of the temple in the middle of the tribulation when the Antichrist declares himself God. He describes this man of sin as: who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God (2 Thess. 2:4).
Revelation 11 refers explicitly to the temple service and the desecration of the temple in the tribulation period. Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood, saying, “Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar, and those who worship there. But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months” (Rev. 11:1, 2). The courtyard is the place where trading took place. It was given to the Gentiles where they, under the rule of the Antichrist, will trample the holy city for forty-two months. This period is a measured period under divine determining. It is 1260 days or three-and-a-half years.
The full implications of the erecting of this idol in the temple are shown in Revelation 13. It will entail the forced worship of the Antichrist as the self-proclaimed god of this world, as well as a certain death sentence for anyone who would refuse to worship him as God. The false prophet will give the image occultic life: He was granted power to give breath to the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak and cause as many as would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. (Rev. 13:15). The false prophet will not only bring down fire from heaven, but he will also deceive the inhabitants of the earth saying that they are to worship the Antichrist (Rev. 13:12-14). Those who will refuse to worship the Antichrist will pay with their lives, others with their income (Rev. 13:16-18).
When the Antichrist declares himself God, he will not only prohibit all Jewish sacrifices, but also all other religions (Rev.17:1-7, 16-18). All other forms of worship will be strictly prohibited and punishable by death.
From all the Biblical data it is clear that the third temple, the one in the days of the Great Tribulation, will soon be built in Jerusalem, because Bible prophecy clearly states that a temple will exist in the end time. Sacrifices will also be brought at that time, which means that the temple service will be reinstated by the spiritual leaders of the nation of Israel (Dan. 9:27). The Antichrist will exploit this situation for his own gain (Matt. 24:15-21; 2 Thess. 2:3-9; Rev. 11:1, 2; 13:4-18).
I say -----this above agrees with what David Jeremiah said in his article -------
https://www.davidjeremiah.org/this-...-temple-before-the-rapture?devdate=2022-11-04
But according to Scripture, the temple will be rebuilt by the middle of the Tribulation. Paul foresaw a day when the Antichrist will sit "as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God" (2 Thessalonians 2:4). In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus referred to the restored temple and its desecration: "When you see the 'abomination of desolation,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place... then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.... For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:15-16, 21).
-----I say ---------So you may not agree with these people and that is your right to do so ---
Why does everyone quote from Matthew 24 and never from Luke 21?
I must have seen this a hundred times, always verses taken from Matthew 24 and never verses from Luke 21.
We are in the age of the Gentiles now.
There will be no third temple because Israel has to be under the law of Moses.
Israel is a democratic country, the majority of the country do not believe in God.
How can you have a third temple, animal sacrifices, priests. When they do not even have the law.
You said it without saying it. What you did is a very common manipulation tactic. You plant a suggestion in people's minds so they'll think they came up with the idea on their own. If they come to accept it, you've been successful. If they reject it you're safe because you never stated it as fact in the first place. I don't know if you're even aware that's what you did.