A Question

[Cameron143]

This is the text:

8 And to her it was granted to be arrayed in fine linen, clean and bright, for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.

Oops! This is the NKJV. Sorry wrong filter.

BTW the KJV version does not change the meaning of the verse.

"Her" is still the pronoun and the "of" still refers to her righteousness.

Are you a KJV only or just if it fits the issue at hand?

The point is what she is arrayed in. The white robe or adornment is always a picture of perfect righteousness and that is the righteousness of Christ. Our own righteousness is as filthy rags...Isaiah 64:6.

Salvation is not by works that we have done. Titus 3:5...Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us...

 

[Cameron143]

I will not go down this muddy rabbit hole with you. Have you forgotten what the OP is about?

Other questions invariably creep into various threads. You are not under any compunction to answer.
I have enjoyed the conversation as questions such as these cause us to recall and inform the reasons we believe as we do. I'm not attacking you personally, merely challenging the validity of some of your understanding of scripture. It's not personal. If I have been a cause of offense, I offer my sincerest apologies.

 

[Ted01]

The condemned?

What about the saved, that should be the focus.

There are only two types of people in the world, the saved and the condemned.

Jesus said the:

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved (Type A)
whoever does not believe will be condemned. (Type B)

So what again is your point about the condemned?

That the issue of baptism has nothing to do with condemnation... if it did, we could expect this verse say so.
It's not believing that would condemn us, baptism isn't mentioned.

You keep saying that acts of obedience are not acts of merit... but then you directly link those same acts to meriting our Salvation.
We are Saved unto good works, works of obedience, not by them.

 

[selahsays]

We are saved by God’s GRACE.

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. - Ephesians 2:4-10 (KJV)

It is God's grace that brings about salvation. There is no other way. Surely, we cannot do anything to earn God's salvation.

In Christ, we are fellow servants, but it is God who gives us all that we have. Consider the gifts of the Spirit. Whatever the gift might be, it is God who gave it to us in the first place; we can't take credit for it. All the glory goes to the LORD. So if you teach or encourage others, this is God's overall plan for you, and whatever gifts and works you do must fit into His plan—after all, they were ”before ordained”—In other words, you do the works because you are saved, and not to be saved. And God will reward His children for their faithfulness.

selah

 

[bluto]

The Old Testament does not teach that the Jews were earning their remission of sins by obeying works of the LAW.

This is a common misunderstanding of the Old Testament.

Their act of coating the door posts was not the means of their protection but the point or moment of their protection.

You really don't know what your talking about Lamar! For one thing your making what is known as a "category" error by bringing up the Jews coating their door post. This has nothing to do with salvation proper but by doing what God said they were saving their first born from being killed. Don't you ever read the context?

Secondly, the Jews in the Old Testament were saved by faith just as Christians are saved in the New Testament. Hebrew 11:1-8."Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. vs2, For by it the men of old gained approval. vs3, By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God etc. Vs8, "By faith Abraham, when he was called obeyed by going out to a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out not knowing where he was going."

And here is what the Apostle Paul stated at Galatians 3:24-26. Vs24, "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be JUSTIFIED BY FAITH." Vs25, "But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor, vs26, For you are all sons of God THROUGH FAITH IN JESUS CHRIST." Or to put it another way, "The Old Testament saints looked forward to the cross, the New Testament saints look back at the cross. Lastly, I have one question to ask you? Are you Jewish?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lamar]

That the issue of baptism has nothing to do with condemnation... if it did, we could expect this verse say so.
It's not believing that would condemn us, baptism isn't mentioned.

You keep saying that acts of obedience are not acts of merit... but then you directly link those same acts to meriting our Salvation.
We are Saved unto good works, works of obedience, not by them.

That the issue of baptism has nothing to do with condemnation... if it did, we could expect this verse say so. Agreed.

Baptism is not about being condemned it's about the moment of being saved. It is you who insist on linking baptism and condemnation.

It is Jesus who links baptism with salvation.

Are you implying that it takes both unbelief and no baptism for there to be condemnation???

Again, baptism is about salvation not condemnation.

Mankind is already in a state of condemnation. It is the lack of belief that keeps him there.

 

[VARob]

Mankind is already in a state of condemnation. It is the lack of belief that keeps him there.

Right. Not the lack of water baptism.

 

[Lamar]

The point is what she is arrayed in. The point is what she is arrayed in.

The point is what she is arrayed in.

"The point is what she is arrayed in. "
The verse answers what she is arrayed in and it is not what you are claiming.

 

[posthuman]

"this group considers a person unsaved unless they take part in a very particular baptismal rite and speak in tongues."

They may very well believe this but that is not the issue here. The issue is simply do they believe they are earning salvation by fulfilling these commands?

"so, practically speaking, despite their statement, they do not consider salvation to by grace through faith alone, but contingent on a sacrament and a demonstration of glossolalia."

If you believe your above comment please show evidence of it, because what you presented as "proof" is stating no such thing.

As a matter of fact, it proves the opposite.

i reiterate:

Galatians 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."

your argument about "works of merit" is purely semantic here; if salvation is contingent on a particular action, resulting in damnation without that action, then salvation is for all intents and purposes "by" that action.

if glossolalia is necessary for salvation, then salvation is through glossolalia.

 

[Lamar]

Right. Not the lack of water baptism.

Right. Not the lack of water baptism. Agreed?

And Jesus said belief and baptism is the release of the condemnation. Agreed?

 

[posthuman]

Where in what you presented states that they are earning salvation by fulfilling these commands?

"earning" is semantic.

if there is no salvation without helping turtles across the road, and failing to help a turtle across a road results in damnation, then salvation is through helping turtles across the road.

 

[VARob]

Right. Not the lack of water baptism. Agreed?

And Jesus said belief and baptism is the release of the condemnation. Agreed?

I don't believe water baptism is necessary for salvation. The baptism that matters is baptism in the Holy Spirit.
I'll leave it at that.

 

[posthuman]

And Jesus said belief and baptism is the release of the condemnation. Agreed?

actually no.

He says whoever believes and is baptized is saved, and whoever does not believe is condemned.

And in more than one other place He says whoever believes is saved, without mention of baptism - so "and is baptized" is not exclusive.

 

[Ted01]

That the issue of baptism has nothing to do with condemnation... if it did, we could expect this verse say so. Agreed.

Baptism is not about being condemned it's about the moment of being saved. It is you who insist on linking baptism and condemnation.

It is Jesus who links baptism with salvation.

Are you implying that it takes both unbelief and no baptism for there to be condemnation???

Again, baptism is about salvation not condemnation.

Mankind is already in a state of condemnation. It is the lack of belief that keeps him there.

It is not about Salvation!
And no, I didn't imply anything... the verse clearly states that it's only unbelief that causes condemnation... you're playing games. lol
The "point of Salvation"? Where do you find that notion in Scripture?

@posthuman gave you the right answer on this issue in post #93.

 

[posthuman]

Obeying the works of the Old Testament law was to remove (remission) the guilt of sin.

Not to remove. to cover.

And in the Law that covering is only worked through the temple sacrificial ordinances, not by ordinary obedience to regulations - under the law failure to "do" these works outlined in commands and ordinances results in damnation that can be "covered" ((in most cases - but not every sin could be covered by sacrificial blood)) by the blood of sacrifices but not "removed"

only Christ removes sin. by His blood, and by fiat.

 

[Cameron143]

"The point is what she is arrayed in. "
The verse answers what she is arrayed in and it is not what you are claiming.

If our own righteousness was sufficient, why do we need the imputed righteousness of Christ?

 

[bluto]

That the issue of baptism has nothing to do with condemnation... if it did, we could expect this verse say so. Agreed.

Baptism is not about being condemned it's about the moment of being saved. It is you who insist on linking baptism and condemnation.

It is Jesus who links baptism with salvation.

Are you implying that it takes both unbelief and no baptism for there to be condemnation???

Again, baptism is about salvation not condemnation.

Mankind is already in a state of condemnation. It is the lack of belief that keeps him there.

Since you made this statement, "It is Jesus who links baptism with salvation." I have a question for you from Acts 10:44-48 where the Apostle Peter is dealing with the Roman centurion Cornelius a Gentile.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. Vs45, "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why were they amazed Lamar?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles ALSO."

vs46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God, The Peter answered. Vs47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for those to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he?" Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

So here you have an example or a model of where the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized. Water baptism came after they were saved. Which begs the question of what happens to people who become saved while hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and committing their lives to Him but are unable to get baptized? Btw, the thief on the cross became saved and he did not get baptized. How do you explain this Lamar?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lamar]

Since you made this statement, "It is Jesus who links baptism with salvation." I have a question for you from Acts 10:44-48 where the Apostle Peter is dealing with the Roman centurion Cornelius a Gentile.

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. Vs45, "And all the circumcised believers who had come with Peter were amazed, (why were they amazed Lamar?) because the GIFT of the Holy Spirit had been poured out upon the Gentiles ALSO."

vs46, "For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God, The Peter answered. Vs47, "Surely no one can refuse the water for those to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit as we did, can he?" Vs48, And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

So here you have an example or a model of where the Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit BEFORE they were water baptized. Water baptism came after they were saved. Which begs the question of what happens to people who become saved while hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ and committing their lives to Him but are unable to get baptized? Btw, the thief on the cross became saved and he did not get baptized. How do you explain this Lamar?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

First, I did not make the statement that links baptism with salvation it was Jesus who uttered those words in Mark 16:16.

If you will admit this truth I will answer your question. If not I doubt you will accept any answer that goes against faith alone regeneration theology.

I await your answer.

 

[Lamar]

If our own righteousness was sufficient, why do we need the imputed righteousness of Christ?

Who made this claim? Please cite.

 

[Lamar]

It is not about Salvation!
And no, I didn't imply anything... the verse clearly states that it's only unbelief that causes condemnation... you're playing games. lol
The "point of Salvation"? Where do you find that notion in Scripture?

@posthuman gave you the right answer on this issue in post #93.

Jesus: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved."
You: "It is not about Salvation!"

It most certainly is about salvation.

salvation
noun

1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.