Three Questions for Calvinists

[Beckie]

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

 

[Mem]

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

ok.

 

[NOV25]

Considering, this Doctrine comes out of a manuscript, not just deemed Un-Worthy of being in the Canon [Septuagint], because it is factually a simple bunch of human Opinions jotted down, means, I am not too concerned about the "god," these Opinions, are trying to pretend to be.

Is the Septuagint the same as the Tanakh?
The Septuagint does not consist of a single, unified corpus. Rather, it is a collection of ancient translations of the Tanakh, along with other Jewish texts that are now commonly referred to as apocrypha.

What does apocrypha mean?
apocrypha, (from Greek apokryptein, “to hide away”), in biblical literature, works outside an accepted canon of scripture. The history of the term's usage indicates that it referred to a body of esoteric writings that were at first prized, later tolerated, and finally excluded.

What is Esoteric Writings?

a personal interpretation!

You keep regurgitating the same stuff lately. Copy/paste copy/paste 🥱

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Joh 17:8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
Joh 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Joh 17:10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

Look at Verses 11 and 12
11 And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in my name that thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we.

12 When I was with them I kept them in thy name that thou hast given me

Jesus isn't talking about Future Believers here, He is praying for the Ones He knew in Person.

Did He know you and me in Person while He was on Earth for 33 years?

NOPE!

 

[Beckie]

Look at Verses 11 and 12
11 And I am no longer in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in my name that thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we.

12 When I was with them I kept them in thy name that thou hast given me

Jesus isn't talking about Future Believers here, He is praying for the Ones He knew in Person.

Did He know you and me in Person while He was on Earth for 33 years?

NOPE!

Do you believe you were given to Son by the Father , are you part of the world?

Did He know you and me in Person while He was on Earth for 33 years?

He knows the number of hairs on our heads.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
was your name written from the foundation of the world?

I have never studied Calvin's writings nor Luthers ... About 25 or so years ago when i got my first computer I was kicked out of a Christian chat . In my mind all i had done was post Scripture. When i was free to come back i asked the "owner' why she said YOU KNOW you are one of THOSE I had zero idea what she was talking about after a bit of back and forth she used the word Calvinist in my uneducated head i was thinking Calvary sorta sounds like calvinist . So i did some searching read a short John Calvin bio maybe from wiki if they were around then, My Pentecostal dispensational upbringing was sheltered.
It hurts when Christians who see things differently get really hateful with each other. I see both sides of this issue as Christian. My sister is 100% Pentecostal dispensational. We both love the Lord . I post the Scriptures that speak to me i would bet you do the same.
Again i do not or have not read ,but that small bio , studied Calvin
The Word speaks to you what God has intended for you , the same for me. The point being He is our God the God of the Scriptures . Our Father giving to HIs kids what they need.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Do you believe you were given to Son by the Father , are you part of the world?
He knows the number of hairs on our heads.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
was your name written from the foundation of the world?

I have never studied Calvin's writings nor Luthers ... About 25 or so years ago when i got my first computer I was kicked out of a Christian chat . In my mind all i had done was post Scripture. When i was free to come back i asked the "owner' why she said YOU KNOW you are one of THOSE I had zero idea what she was talking about after a bit of back and forth she used the word Calvinist in my uneducated head i was thinking Calvary sorta sounds like calvinist . So i did some searching read a short John Calvin bio maybe from wiki if they were around then, My Pentecostal dispensational upbringing was sheltered.
It hurts when Christians who see things differently get really hateful with each other. I see both sides of this issue as Christian. My sister is 100% Pentecostal dispensational. We both love the Lord . I post the Scriptures that speak to me i would bet you do the same.
Again i do not or have not read ,but that small bio , studied Calvin
The Word speaks to you what God has intended for you , the same for me. The point being He is our God the God of the Scriptures . Our Father giving to HIs kids what they need.

I like You Miss Beckie, and do my best, to be really good, when we discuss things. I think we have much in common how we have similar backgrounds and have been around the same Doctrines. And I know God knows every single hair, He knows everything down to the molecules and simple proteins to the DNA/Genetics.

But those Verses, that have been falsely used, is because, not many people question the intent of any Pastor or Denomination. When you can read 2 Verses later, this is about the People, within the Personal Life of Jesus, when He lived among His Creation. You have to just say, Deception, is the work of Satan.

These Verses are very very very clear. There is No Election, the only Ones Elected, have been Hebrews and the Disciples and People around Jesus. For the Rest of Us....we have this:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

What cracks me up.
We have Threads about Gifts and Prosperity, and generally about False Preachers.
The Usage of John 17:8-10, but not unveiling Verses 11 and 12, makes the Calvin Preachers, fit into the Same, False Preachers, Category.
They're are flat out being Deceptive and Lying.

 

[Beckie]

I like You Miss Beckie, and do my best, to be really good, when we discuss things. I think we have much in common how we have similar backgrounds and have been around the same Doctrines. And I know God knows every single hair, He knows everything down to the molecules and simple proteins to the DNA/Genetics.

But those Verses, that have been falsely used, is because, not many people question the intent of any Pastor or Denomination. When you can read 2 Verses later, this is about the People, within the Personal Life of Jesus, when He lived among His Creation. You have to just say, Deception, is the work of Satan.

These Verses are very very very clear. There is No Election, the only Ones Elected, have been Hebrews and the Disciples and People around Jesus. For the Rest of Us....we have this:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

I read John 17 as the prayer of Christ for His church , or His Body . From then and before to now . You dont I will not say you believe a deception from satan .
Most of our conversations have been pleasant

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I read John 17 as the prayer of Christ for His church , or His Body . From then and before to now . You dont I will not say you believe a deception from satan .
Most of our conversations have been pleasant

I actually really like that View!
Really, I have no issue, if you want to place yourself in these Verses.
We both know, at the time, Jesus, was only Praying for the Ones, who would Do His Work once He Ascended.
This is why, They were ELECTED, to hold this position of Spreading the Gospel.
It's a in the Moment Prayer, not a Future Prayer, and the Apostle John, is capturing this Special Moment.
But indeed, I do believe, Jesus, as my Lord, Savior, God, and Mediator, is Praying, for all of us!

 

[karine]

I've been accused of being a Calvinist, and though I'm not quite sure what that is, I'm pretty sure I don't want to know! 😬

I also heard such words to my address. But I wanted to know. Even found an article about Presbyterians https://www.christianpure.com/learn/presbyterian-vs-roman-catholic Well, it provided me with interesting historical facts and doctrines these people follow, but I still don't understand why people like me (and you) are accused of being Calvinists. I think next time I'll ask for an explanation to figure it out.

 

[Snacker]

Yikes 😬
I hope you realize, if you’re wrong it means (by your own admission) you’re serving a false god and you just called the true God a selfish narcissist.

Pot, meet kettle.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yikes 😬
I hope you realize, if you’re wrong it means (by your own admission) you’re serving a false god and you just called the true God a selfish narcissist.

To all: It’s one thing to disagree with the doctrine of election out of ignorance, but it’s an entirely different thing to hate it (and the God who ordained it).

Be sure.

The Reformed movement is frustrating.

I must admit when it comes to dealing with societal and cultural problems they are very firm and are a tremendous voice for good.

I am thinking of Voddie Baucham, R. C. Sproul. It really makes it hard to understand how they can be so wrong and yet be so helpful in other ways where many other leaders are compromised.

I will also say that the do have tremendous depth to their theology, people like Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones comes to mind.

It is just hard to understand how theologians can be so wrong on one part and yet have so much to offer in other areas.
Make no mistake I think the doctrines of TULIP are cultic, not the God of the Bible, yet I do believe that many born again believers have been persuaded that it is true.
That is the power of persuasion and we should all be on guard to not fall prey to false doctrine.

 

[Beckie]

I actually really like that View!
Really, I have no issue, if you want to place yourself in these Verses.
We both know, at the time, Jesus, was only Praying for the Ones, who would Do His Work once He Ascended.
This is why, They were ELECTED, to hold this position of Spreading the Gospel.
It's a in the Moment Prayer, not a Future Prayer, and the Apostle John, is capturing this Special Moment.
But indeed, I do believe, Jesus, as my Lord, Savior, God, and Mediator, is Praying, for all of us!

I am confused your last line does not read like the rest of the post. Am i correct is saying you dont believe John 17 is for today ?

What are your thoughts about the "Lords Prayer"? If different , Why?

 

[Shepherd]

Yikes 😬
I hope you realize, if you’re wrong it means (by your own admission) you’re serving a false god and you just called the true God a selfish narcissist.

To all: It’s one thing to disagree with the doctrine of election out of ignorance, but it’s an entirely different thing to hate it (and the God who ordained it).

Be sure.

strawman much?
Sir, election has nothing to do with predetermining people to salvation; election is about service. And yes, proponents of calvinism have.........."changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man ....." Romans 1:23

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I am confused your last line does not read like the rest of the post. Am i correct is saying you dont believe John 17 is for today ?

What are your thoughts about the "Lords Prayer"? If different , Why?

I don't believe, that we were Chosen to be with Jesus while He was on Earth. Hence, the why we are now here 2,000 years later. And that is what Verses 8-12 are about. Everything else, besides the Election part, I definitely believe, Jesus, is Praying for ALL of US WHO obeyed John 3:16.

 

[Beckie]

I don't believe, that we were Chosen to be with Jesus while He was on Earth. Hence, the why we are now here 2,000 years later. And that is what Verses 8-12 are about. Everything else, besides the Election part, I definitely believe, Jesus, is Praying for ALL of US WHO obeyed John 3:16.

Thanks for the pleasant reply ! Kinda nice to discuss differences with out the mean language.
My understanding :
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Our names were written from the foundation of the world or not.

I read the Prayer as cohesive you dont. I doubt either will change the others heart/mind. Some where along mid term in life's road Scripture began to read differently to me then it had in the years before. It is hard not to share what my heart feels , tis the same for you i an sure !

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Thanks for the pleasant reply ! Kinda nice to discuss differences with out the mean language.
My understanding :
Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Our names were written from the foundation of the world or not.

I read the Prayer as cohesive you dont. I doubt either will change the others heart/mind. Some where along mid term in life's road Scripture began to read differently to me then it had in the years before. It is hard not to share what my heart feels , tis the same for you i an sure !

There can never be an Argument, based upon, that God did not know before the beginning of Creation, what would happen. And we know this more so because we Serve the Only God Who knows the End from the Beginning. So He can work it from Beginning to End or End to Beginning. Which means, He Knows it All!

But knowing, is like a Teacher giving the Test, and knowing the Answers, but the Students must take the Test and hope they understand.
By observation of a Classroom, it's safe to say, BEFORE, the Teacher passed out the Test, the Teacher, already knew Who would Pass and Who would Not. But nevertheless, without helping, the Teacher, allows the Students to fend for themselves.

I see this example in Revelation the same way.

 

[Beckie]

There can never be an Argument, based upon, that God did not know before the beginning of Creation, what would happen. And we know this more so because we Serve the Only God Who knows the End from the Beginning. So He can work it from Beginning to End or End to Beginning. Which means, He Knows it All!

But knowing, is like a Teacher giving the Test, and knowing the Answers, but the Students must take the Test and hope they understand.
By observation of a Classroom, it's safe to say, BEFORE, the Teacher passed out the Test, the Teacher, already knew Who would Pass and Who would Not. But nevertheless, without helping, the Teacher, allows the Students to fend for themselves.

I see this example in Revelation the same way.

We read the psalms where David asks God to set his path.
Where God formed him in the womb,
David was a man after God's own heart . Was David more of a Christian then you?
I believe the Body of Christ to be composed of the saints of old ie; Noah ,Job, Moses , Samuel , Daniel John the baptist and some internet guy going by The_ Watchers.

 

[NOV25]

The Reformed movement is frustrating.

I must admit when it comes to dealing with societal and cultural problems they are very firm and are a tremendous voice for good.

I am thinking of Voddie Baucham, R. C. Sproul. It really makes it hard to understand how they can be so wrong and yet be so helpful in other ways where many other leaders are compromised.

I will also say that the do have tremendous depth to their theology, people like Dr. Martin Lloyd Jones comes to mind.

It is just hard to understand how theologians can be so wrong on one part and yet have so much to offer in other areas.
Make no mistake I think the doctrines of TULIP are cultic, not the God of the Bible, yet I do believe that many born again believers have been persuaded that it is true.
That is the power of persuasion and we should all be on guard to not fall prey to false doctrine.

As our sister @Beckie mentions, some folks see it from day one, no need that any man teach us.

I didn’t grow up in the church, none of my family are Christian. Growing up in the US I obviously heard the gospel and even felt sorrow for my sin and at times attempted to change, read the Bible etc. but it never stuck.

At age 38, I picked up a motel Bible and began reading Matthew, by chapter 18 I truly believed, prostrate I wept in Godly sorrow for what seemed like months. From that day on I became a slave to righteousness, in love with Christ and his word. As I watched my nature change I simply knew this faith, repentance and sanctification was not my own.

Wasn’t until over a year later someone called me a Calvinist, the way they said it seemed derogatory lol. Googled it when I got home, found RC Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John MacArthur, Paul Washer etc. It was confirmation for me, I’d only read the Bible and actually attended a synergistic church from day one. In other words, no man taught me. I being born from above by the Spirit of truth, simply read the Bible.

2 Corinthians 7:10

[10] For godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret, whereas worldly grief produces death.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

We read the psalms where David asks God to set his path.
Where God formed him in the womb,
David was a man after God's own heart . Was David more of a Christian then you?
I believe the Body of Christ to be composed of the saints of old ie; Noah ,Job, Moses , Samuel , Daniel John the baptist and some internet guy going by The_ Watchers.

God knows how Sinners are formed in the Womb, as well.
He knows us ALL.

I don't understand, how isolating one example, for some, means, it applies to everyone?
Who came up with that, since, it is not the Norm for the entire Bible?
Shouldn't we Established things that are a Constant in God's Word, not things, that are One Time Examples?

Jesus Heals, we see it many many many times.
Guess what?
We know, that Jesus Heals, because it is Mentioned over and over and over.

But these Doctrines are based on examples so scarce [2 literal Examples : Both Time JEWS], but we apply that Covenant to ourselves, when as GENTILES, we have a Different and New Covenant that EVEN the JEWS must follow.

So, if the Jews must follow the Gentile Way, why are Gentiles, trying to follow the Old Jewish ways and claim it means, Them?

That is almost the definition to Skitzoism!