Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

[Pilgrimshope]

Commandments of love; loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. Romans 13:8-10


Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Romans 13:8-10


If we commit adultery with our neighbors wife, is that loving our neighbor?


If we carve our idols and bow down to them, is that loving God.


I think we can agree on these things.



If we see a brother who is freezing or starving and we do nothing for him, is that loving our brother?



Then He will also say to those on the left hand, Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41-46
JLB

right if we learn to love other people Jesus way we will never kill them , steal from them , lie to them , we would never commit adultery against a spouse we love right because to do that isn’t love to kill someone is not love

But if I look at a commandment saying “Thou shalt not kill “ and believe this can save me I’m missing the point if I don’t kill someone it doesn’t mean I love them , but if I love them I’m never going to have to be told “ don’t kill them”

what jesus taught is how God wants us to live

what Moses taught the children of Israel “ thou shalt not do this sin or you must be put to death “

so for instance

Commandment

“Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭20:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

moses judgement of that commandment in the law

“And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife,

the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭20:10‬ ‭

So you have the commandment “do not do this thing” , then the judgement of the mediator Moses “ if anyone does this thing this is the judgement upon them a death sentance “

That’s not Christian law it’s the law of Moses . And the reason it’s mostly about “ thou shalt not do this thing “ is because he was giving a law to people who were corrupt in heart constantly worshipping idols before and after he’s saved them and delivered them the law is not given to born again Christian’s it’s given to these folks before that happened

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man,


but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


If you think about his point if I’m talking to people known to be violent I’m going to say “ thou shalt not kill each other “ if I’m speaking to these people

“the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, for whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; “


I need to say the things Moses said to them “ stop killing you killlers stop lying and cheating and robbing and commiting adultery ect

A christian is born of this word which they never nor the angels never grasped or were offered before Jesus came speaking it

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is not something people taught and heard it’s not telling them they need to be killed for thoer sins after it points out all the possible sin it can it’s saying something of immense value to the one who can open thier hearts nd hear what Jesus is really saying and believe

God is our father he isn’t a flame of smoke and terrifying power they ran away from and begged not to hear him speak from Sinai our father is like Jesus was inviting , lovong , caring

we can learn from Moses bout God or Jesus and then later see Moses talking about Jesus

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus was under the Law of Moses in that He was born a Jew and had not yet died on the cross. At the same time, He exercised His perfect right to "bend"/"override" some of those laws in certain situations. (like healing people on the Sabbath)

The ministry of Jesus was an "overlap" of OT and NT 'law' - He "followed" both (at the same time) in proper respect of/to the Father.

Jesus did not need to bend the law. He showed what it meant to keep it perfectly.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 13:10

 

[Sipsey]

The “rich young ruler“ said he had observed the Law since his youth. He was serious and quite wealthy, yet Jesus said it wasn’t enough.

The Centurion that was commended for his faith didn’t fit the mold either. The Law is good.
Just like a knowledge of God is good, but without a bit of humility, the baptism and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and a good memory, we all fall short.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles, needed the Law (Acts 25:8). Why wouldn't you? If you truly are walking in Love then it's the Law which will prove your righteousness ahead of the judgement.

Not so

the law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.. Once it has fulfilled its purpose. you have no need of it.

 

[cv5]

Thanks. I thought you might say that. Since your misuse of those Scriptures has already been adequately addressed I will ignore your response.

What I'm asking for here is for the antinomians to explain the logic behind a supposed temporary abolition of God's Law. If, as Paul says, it is Holy, just, and good, then what do you propose is God's purpose in getting rid of it only to bring it back again later?

Come to think of it:

OT = old covenant = husband of blood and the betrothal during Shavuot at Sanai #1
NT = new covenant = resurrected husband of blood and the betrothal during Shavuot/Pentecost #2

Maybe you get it maybe you do not. But probably not.

Exo 4:25
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone and cut off the foreskin of her son and cast it at Moses' feet, and said, “Surely you are a husband of blood to me!”
Exo 4:26
So He let him go. Then she said, “You are a husband of blood!”—because of the circumcision.

 

[Sojourner414]

I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?

"Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man’s covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as referring to many, but rather to one, “And to your seed,” that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed would come to whom the promise had been made. Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one. Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:15-29, NASB, emphasis mine)

I believe Scripture settles the matter here.

 

[Dino246]

Jesus did not abolish any of the law (torah/marriage covenant). Had he done so He would have violated the law and He would be a sinner. Your accusation is an abomination to all of the Word.

...

You will not find any text sayig Jesus abolished the law, but of course, you can do all things "out of context".

Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Your argument fails on this: there was a time before the Law. If the Law were eternal, it would have to pre-exist Adam.

Hebrews 8:13 says, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

It is clear that the covenant under Moses is no longer in effect.

 

[cv5]

Your argument fails on this: there was a time before the Law. If the Law were eternal, it would have to pre-exist Adam.

Hebrews 8:13 says, "By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear."

It is clear that the covenant under Moses is no longer in effect.

Heb 7:18
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

 

[Dino246]

Heb 7:18
For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Now now, there's no need get get all sesquipedalian on us!

 

[Grace911]

After Jesus fulfilled the Law, He abolished it.

Jesus was without sin. He was also born a Jew. He was an expert in the law. Master and Rabbi. If Jesus had "abolished it" (the law in Torah), that would make Him a sinner. Why? Because of the Torah/Pentateuch.

Jesus' Hebrew name is Yeshua which means Yehovah Saves.

Most of us know 1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The Pharisees and Sadducee ADDED to the LAWS. They were sinners and their LAWS were too heavy so that even they couldn't keep them. Oral Law and Talmud - Historical is ok, but elevating their oral law above God's Laws was a big NO. For example - they declared Jesus pulling corn off the stalk and eating that handful was breaking their Sabbath law. Another example, they had a tradition that you must ceremonial wash your hands with three pourings over each hand before you eat. Sounds reasonable, but it was not Torah Law.

My point is to show you Jesus did not abolish the law in Torah/Pentateuch. Had He done so, He would be a sinner and not qualified to be the Messiah/Saviour of the world.

It is no wonder at all why most Jews reject the Christian Messiah "Jesus" because they perpetrate that He is not the God of the OT. By saying Jesus abolishes "it", needs to be redefined to understand He called those who added or diminished the law Hypocrites and Vipers.

Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat_15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat_16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat_22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat_23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat_23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat_24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Luk_11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luk_12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

These additional laws of the scribes and Pharisees are what Jesus abolished!! Not Torah!! While some of Torah is on pause, it is not done away with or abolished, in any form. It is all there for our benefit.

 

[Cameron143]

Jesus was without sin. He was also born a Jew. He was an expert in the law. Master and Rabbi. If Jesus had "abolished it" (the law in Torah), that would make Him a sinner. Why? Because of the Torah/Pentateuch.

Jesus' Hebrew name is Yeshua which means Yehovah Saves.

Most of us know 1 John 3:4 - Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

The Pharisees and Sadducee ADDED to the LAWS. They were sinners and their LAWS were too heavy so that even they couldn't keep them. Oral Law and Talmud - Historical is ok, but elevating their oral law above God's Laws was a big NO. For example - they declared Jesus pulling corn off the stalk and eating that handful was breaking their Sabbath law. Another example, they had a tradition that you must ceremonial wash your hands with three pourings over each hand before you eat. Sounds reasonable, but it was not Torah Law.

My point is to show you Jesus did not abolish the law in Torah/Pentateuch. Had He done so, He would be a sinner and not qualified to be the Messiah/Saviour of the world.

It is no wonder at all why most Jews reject the Christian Messiah "Jesus" because they perpetrate that He is not the God of the OT. By saying Jesus abolishes "it", needs to be redefined to understand He called those who added or diminished the law Hypocrites and Vipers.

Mat_6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_6:16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Mat_12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat_15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat_16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
Mat_22:18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat_23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Mat_23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Mat_23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Mat_23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
Mat_23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
Mat_23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat_23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Mat_24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mar_7:6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
Luk_11:44 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are as graves which appear not, and the men that walk over them are not aware of them.
Luk_12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?

These additional laws of the scribes and Pharisees are what Jesus abolished!! Not Torah!! While some of Torah is on pause, it is not done away with or abolished, in any form. It is all there for our benefit.

Your point is a good one. The law was fulfilled, not abolished.

 

[Mem]

Heb 7:18

For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Planned Obsolescence is a business strategy utilized with the intention to replace an older version of a product with a 'new and improved' version. There's always the option to hold on to the older version for as long as you want, but you'd be hard pressed to find replacement parts for once it fails to function at its optimal capacity.

 

[Magenta]

Your point is a good one. The law was fulfilled, not abolished.

The law remains to condemn those not covered by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ .

 

[Cameron143]

The law remains to condemn those not covered by grace through faith in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ .

It is also there to affect the conscience of those unredeemed to constrain sin in their lives.

 

[Magenta]

It is also there to affect the conscience of those unredeemed to constrain sin in their lives.

Though such often do not agree with the concept of sin...

 

[Cameron143]

Though such often do not agree with the concept of sin...

That's true until you do something they don't like. Everyone has a moral code.
Ravi Zacharias was very good at making this point, especially to atheists. He would point out that if there was no moral law giver then there could be no moral law. So all morality would then be relative so if someone's morality allowed for murder, they had no right to object to someone taking their life. If another's morality allowed for stealing, they had no right to object to the theft of their possessions.
It was comical to listen to their excuses.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Your point is a good one. The law was fulfilled, not abolished.

It was abolished because it was fulfilled.


Otherwise you need to sacrifice animals each time you sin.

You must become physically circumcised.

And if you so much as pick up a stick to kindle a fire on the Sabbath, you must be stoned to death.




JPT

 

[Cameron143]

It was abolished because it was fulfilled.


Otherwise you need to sacrifice animals each time you sin.

You must become physically circumcised.

And if you so much as pick up a stick to kindle a fire on the Sabbath, you must be stoned to death.




JPT

I'm just repeating what Jesus said in Matthew 5:17. He said He didn't come to abolish the law but fulfill it.
The law is awesome. The weakness of human flesh not so much. I am not under the law but it is of great value to me.

 

[Grace911]

It was abolished because it was fulfilled.

Otherwise you need to sacrifice animals each time you sin.

You must become physically circumcised.

And if you so much as pick up a stick to kindle a fire on the Sabbath, you must be stoned to death.JPT

1Peter 1:15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
1Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Deuteronomy 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.


If you abolish the law, you abolish holiness as well.

Deuteronomy 10:16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.
Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

"Otherwise you need to sacrifice animals each time you sin."

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Do you live in Jerusalem with a temple and priests serving? Then you cannot, at this time, need to sacrifice each time you sin!! Commonsense, but testimony of the scriptures is the proof. Individuals never sacrifice animals in their tent back side. YHWH/LORD is an orderly God with orderly rules and instructions. All that is in the first five books of the Bible are called Torah meaning instructions. You cannot add or diminish the laws and commandments, however because of sin of serving other gods, God saw fit to pause the Temple services after 70 AD. If you are watching the Israeli news, the Temple Institute is ready with everything needed to restart the sacrificial system.

Just think, if the Temple had not been destroyed we would have 1900 years of history were every High Priest would be suspect of being the antichrist.