Is faith WITHOUT works dead to GOD or Is faith WITHOUT works dead to man?

[seed_time_harvest]

Romans 4:3
KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James 2:16-18
KJV

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

 

[Artios1]

Romans 4:3
KJV
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

James 2:16-18
KJV

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

It’s Dead ….. to both God and man.

That chapter culminates with

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


A better translation to 2:26 is ….For as the body without the spirit is dead, even so believing without corresponding action is dead.

Faith or believing (pistis) requires action …or acting as if it is or has happened which corresponds to

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Literal translation to 11:1 ….Believing is the foundation, ground, or title deed of matters not yet seen but hoped for when it is based on the correct and accurate information that has come from God through revelation or the Word God.


I have come to realize that we do not grow in faith/believing ….we do grow in confidence and trust towards the Word, and God, But with believing/faith we either have it (or do it) or we don’t. I know that seems contrary to some verses especially the mustard seed one (Mat 17:20) but it’s not when you think in terms of in volume rather than capacity.

 

[Nehemiah6]

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Works do not necessarily follow saving faith immediately (even though ideally they should do so). It was many years after Abraham believed God that he was asked to sacrifice Isaac, and he did obey. James uses that as evidence of Abraham's faith. On the other hand we see the apostle Paul preaching Christ within days of his conversion. So "faith without works is dead" would apply to those who have professed faith for quite some time, but have not produced any good works. Good works are a necessary outcome of genuine salvation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

It’s Dead ….. to both God and man.

That chapter culminates with

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


A better translation to 2:26 is ….For as the body without the spirit is dead, even so believing without corresponding action is dead.

Faith or believing (pistis) requires action …or acting as if it is or has happened which corresponds to

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Literal translation to 11:1 ….Believing is the foundation, ground, or title deed of matters not yet seen but hoped for when it is based on the correct and accurate information that has come from God through revelation or the Word God.


I have come to realize that we do not grow in faith/believing ….we do grow in confidence and trust towards the Word, and God, But with believing/faith we either have it (or do it) or we don’t. I know that seems contrary to some verses especially the mustard seed one (Mat 17:20) but it’s not when you think in terms of in volume rather than capacity.

I would have to ask did the thief on the cross do any good works after receiving salvation so then was his faith without doing any works dead to GOD?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Works do not necessarily follow saving faith immediately (even though ideally they should do so). It was many years after Abraham believed God that he was asked to sacrifice Isaac, and he did obey. James uses that as evidence of Abraham's faith. On the other hand we see the apostle Paul preaching Christ within days of his conversion. So "faith without works is dead" would apply to those who have professed faith for quite some time, but have not produced any good works. Good works are a necessary outcome of genuine salvation.

Your last statement confused me but the rest of your post Is outstanding.

 

[mailmandan]

Works do not necessarily follow saving faith immediately (even though ideally they should do so). It was many years after Abraham believed God that he was asked to sacrifice Isaac, and he did obey. James uses that as evidence of Abraham's faith. On the other hand we see the apostle Paul preaching Christ within days of his conversion. So "faith without works is dead" would apply to those who have professed faith for quite some time, but have not produced any good works. Good works are a necessary outcome of genuine salvation.

Yes, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

 

[mailmandan]

That chapter culminates with

Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A better translation to 2:26 is ….For as the body without the spirit is dead, even so believing without corresponding action is dead.
.

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

 

[John146]

Yes, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Are you justified by works? If so, to whom are you justified by works? How many works bring justification?

 

[ResidentAlien]

The question doesn't concern me. The scripture only says faith without works is dead; that's good enough for me.

 

[mailmandan]

Are you justified by works? If so, to whom are you justified by works? How many works bring justification?

Man is shown to be righteous by works, just as Abraham was, (James 2:21) yet man is not accounted as righteous by works. (Romans 4:2-6) James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. We show our faith by our works before God and man. The Bible does not give a specific numbers of works. The apostle Paul had numerous good works, yet the thief on the cross simply rebuked the other thief next to him, defended the Lord and asked Him to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, demonstrating his faith. Jesus promised him that day he will be with Him in Paradise.

If you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you? It does not necessarily take a lot of evidence.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is written that faith without works is dead, no more question.

 

[HeIsHere]

The comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

Here we go again.... ready lol

What has died was once alive correct?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims (key word) they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they demonstrate that they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3)

Here we again, lol ready...

Was this dead faith once alive?

Surely natural law would state it had to be, since is it is now described as dead?

 

[John146]

Man is shown to be righteous by works, just as Abraham was, (James 2:21) yet man is not accounted as righteous by works. (Romans 4:2-6) James 2:18 - But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. We show our faith by our works before God and man. The Bible does not give a specific numbers of works. The apostle Paul had numerous good works, yet the thief on the cross simply rebuked the other thief next to him, defended the Lord and asked Him to remember him when He comes into His kingdom, demonstrating his faith. Jesus promised him that day he will be with Him in Paradise.

If you were put on trial for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you? It does not necessarily take a lot of evidence.

I'm not talking about showing our faith. I'm talking about justification. The NT believer is justified the moment he calls on the name of the Lord. Yes? Our justification comes from the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ accomplished the work for our justification.

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The book of James is not written to the body of Christ, but to the twelve tribes scattered abroad during the times of Jacob's trouble. These are not "Christian" tribes, but the nation of Israel as a whole. This is evident.

 

[mailmandan]

Here we go again.... ready lol

What has died was once alive correct?

No. It was dead from the start. James 2:14 - key word (says/claims) to have faith.. empty profession of faith/dead faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

No. It was dead from the start. James 2:14 - key word (says/claims) to have faith.. empty profession of faith/dead faith.

It cannot be dead from the start that is impossible. So you see why this makes salvation lose-able if we interpret it this way?

Words have a semantic ranges and this "dead" means not in use, not functioning. James is writing to believers.

 

[HeIsHere]

No. It was dead from the start. James 2:14 - key word (says/claims) to have faith.. empty profession of faith/dead faith.

That is correct they are claiming it but not showing it, they do possess saving faith and were saved.

 

[John146]

The faith of Christ justifies the believer. The believer's works/labor will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ. Rewards are at stake. The believer is cannot justify himself by any amount of works. Christ's work on the cross is the only work that can bring eternal justification.

 

[mailmandan]

It cannot be dead from the start that is impossible. So you see why this makes salvation lose-able if we interpret it this way?

Words have a semantic ranges and this "dead" means not in use, not functioning. James is writing to believers.

Salvation wasn't lost here. Can that faith save him? James asks. The answer is no and it's not because we are saved by works, but because this is not authentic faith (which results in producing works) but a bare profession of faith. Says/claims to have faith sums it up.

 

[mailmandan]

I'm not talking about showing our faith. I'm talking about justification. The NT believer is justified the moment he calls on the name of the Lord. Yes? Our justification comes from the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ accomplished the work for our justification.

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The book of James is not written to the body of Christ, but to the twelve tribes scattered abroad during the times of Jacob's trouble. These are not "Christian" tribes, but the nation of Israel as a whole. This is evident.

Sounds like another case of hyper dispensationalism and faith "of" Jesus Christ vs. faith "in" Jesus Christ.