Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

you add concepts which do not appear in Scripture ... "spiritual hearing" ... I know you have to include that term in order to support your dogma ... but the Author of Scripture does not state "spiritual hearing" in the verse:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ...

I used those words to simplify the discussion.

God does not need you to "simplify" His Word ... nor do I need you to add words to Scripture in order to "simplify the discussion". If you want to "simplify the discussion", just read God's Words as the Author has laid it out.

You get into trouble when you do not follow the instructions the Bible sets forth

Deuteronomy 4:2 2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Proverbs 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Here, this is what Christ said as an example of spiritual hearing. They could hear with human ears but they could not hear spiritually.

[Jhn 8:43, 47 KJV]
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. ...
47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

The Lord Jesus Christ tells us why they could not hear His words ... but you skip over the verse because it does not fit your dogma:

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

The Lord Jesus Christ tells us they did not believe Him ... they rejected Him ... they rejected the truth ... they made their own way instead of following Him.

They did the same thing you and brightfame52 are doing now ... add a little here ... remove a little there ...

you do not need to add anything ... just believe the verse as written by the Author.

If you do that, you're in violation of the Bible.

... r-i-g-h-t ...
fyi ... reading God's Word just as He wrote it does not mean "you're in violation of the Bible".

You can't read God's Word just as He wrote it because your dogma is not in alignment with Scripture. You are to align your dogma with Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.

You get into trouble when you do not follow the instructions the Bible sets forth regarding its interpretation and that leads you into error. You've set forth that rule from yourself with no biblical basis for it.

... wow ... you're projecting your own approach to Scripture onto me.

That you have a problem with my pointing out to you that in reading Eph 1:13-14 you "do not need to add anything ... just believe the verse as written by the Author" reveals your lack of trust and faith in God ... you know, the Author of Scripture ...

The word "sealed" is translated from the Greek word sphragizó and denotes ownership:

4972 sphragízō – to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.

4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
HELPS Word-studies

The seal is made manifest in faith.

... quit making stuff up, rogerg. Read God's Word JUST AS HE HAS WRITTEN IT. quit trying to make Scripture align with your erroneous dogma.

The seal signifies the born again one belongs to God. Eph 1:13 makes clear that the child of God is sealed at the time he or she believes ... not before (in eternity past) ... not in some distant point in the future (in eternity future) ... but in this life the born again one has placed upon him or her the seal (which denotes that the born again one belongs to God).

The earnest [Greek arrabón] of the Spirit represents full security backed by the Purchaser Who supplies sufficient proof that He will fulfill the entire pledge. God is the Guarantor ... the earnest of the Spirit represents the full security that the entire pledge will be fulfilled. And if you want to know what the entire pledge is, it's stated right in the verse ... the entire pledge is the inheritance. We are joint heirs with Christ (Rom 8:17). The arrabón of the Spirit is a foretaste of our future full inheritance in the Lord Jesus Christ. He is faithful Who promised.

That truth may or may not appeal to you ... to those who are born again, the truth contained in Eph 1:13-14 is an awesome reality!!!

And the sign of His invisible presence is manifested in faith and trust.

... just read the verse as written ... quit manipulating what the Author of Scripture tells you and just believe what is written as He wrote it:

Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In whom [the Lord Jesus Christ] ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

hear the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation ... after you believed, you were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise ... which is the arrabón of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

here is the statement submitted brightfame52

brightfame52 said:
those He died for do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners

since when has God ever condoned sin??? ... God even tells the wicked to turn from their sin:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

you "elect" guys sure have bought into satan's lie ...

If you don't think people sin carnally throughout their entire lives

another accusation which you cannot prove because I never said what you claim ...

or that by your work you can recompense it

another accusation which you cannot prove

that is Satan's lie and it is you who apparently has bought into it.

the one(s) who have "bought into" satan's lie is the one who claims "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" and the other one who claims "Brightfame52 made no error".

Romans 6:

15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

you wanna be a slave to sin??? have at it.

I prefer to be free from sin ... and a slave of righteousness.

you can go hang out with your pal, brightfame52, and continue in your stated lie that mankind "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ... what a lie from the pit!!!


Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Now this shows me you dont pay attention to a thing Ive been saying all this time.

I do pay attention ... I do not agree with your erroneous dogma and I point out where you contradict Scripture and, more recently, I pointed out where your statement that "they will believe in time" contradicts your prior statement that they "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners".

you can wriggle and worm your way out of your complete disregard for Scripture, and you can even lead some folks astray with you, but that does not change the fact that you contradict Scripture and you also hold opposing views concerning your own erroneous dogma.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

 

[Magenta]

Not on the spiritual.

[2Co 4:3-4 KJV]
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

They still know there is a God... but deny it. And they know Him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[brightfame52]

I do pay attention ... I do not agree with your erroneous dogma and I point out where you contradict Scripture and, more recently, I pointed out where your statement that "they will believe in time" contradicts your prior statement that they "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners".

you can wriggle and worm your way out of your complete disregard for Scripture, and you can even lead some folks astray with you, but that does not change the fact that you contradict Scripture and you also hold opposing views concerning your own erroneous dogma.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
.

No you dot pay attention to detail, I have been explaining the same things over and over to you, but to no avail, but hey thats the Lords wlll.

 

[brightfame52]

They still know there is a God... but deny it. And they know Him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

The unregenerate know there is a god, but they dont know the True God with a Spiritual knowing, that comes only through a special spiritual revelation by Christ, it comes with eternal life Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Matt 11:27


All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Natural creation doesnt reveal God like that, sorry

 

[Magenta]

The unregenerate know there is a god, but they dont know the True God with a Spiritual knowing, that comes only through a special spiritual revelation by Christ, it comes with eternal life Jn 17:2-3 2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Matt 11:27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Natural creation doesnt reveal God like that, sorry

I never said it did. I have been directly quoting Scripture and you and Roger argue against it.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

I have been explaining the same things over and over to you, but to no avail, but hey thats the Lords wlll.

... you have been "explaining over and over" your erroneous dogma and I have revealed that your dogma contradicts what is written in Scripture ...

God never condones sin ... God never says it's okay for anyone to "continue being ungodly sinners" or that it's okay "not to believe it, accept it". God tells mankind to believe ... God tells the wicked to turn from evil ways:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...
.

 

[rogerg]

They still know there is a God... but deny it. And they know Him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Their thinking became futile because their eyes were blinded, as it is with all of the unsaved.
In their heart, they didn't and couldn't know Him. You would make salvation a matter of the intellect instead
of the spiritual. If someone doesn't know the true God (Christ), then they don't know God.

[Jhn 12:39-40 KJV]
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Magenta]

You would make salvation a matter of the intellect instead of the spiritual.

Another false accusation. You remove too much and add a lot not just to Scripture, but what others say, as well.

 

[rogerg]

Another false accusation. You remove too much and add a lot not just to Scripture, but what others say, as well.

If salvation is a choice of man, then it must be of their intellect. I do NOT add to Scripture at all, it is just that you don't know how
to read and interpret it.

 

[Magenta]

If salvation is a choice of man, then it must be of their intellect. I do NOT add to Scripture at all, it is just that you don't know how to read and interpret it.

That is a logical fallacy. And anti-Scriptural. And you lie. I have pointed out where you add to and subtract
from Scripture. But since you are so dishonest, you refuse to acknowledge or admit that is what you do.

 

[rogerg]

That is a logical fallacy. And anti-Scriptural. And you lie. I have pointed out where you add to and subtract
from Scripture. But since you are so dishonest, you refuse to acknowledge or admit that is what you do.

I don't think you're a liar, just completely mistaken about the Bible because you remain under law and works and
don't understand nor recognize grace.

 

[posthuman]

If I understand you correctly, and without opening up a whole involved, lengthy discussion of Romans 1, I would say it is the love of darkness that exists within the heart of natural man.

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (nkjv)
He has made everything beautiful in its time. Also He has put eternity in their hearts, except that no one can find out the work that God does from beginning to end.

but if the eternity God put in our hearts is love of darkness, then God is the Author of the love of darkness - which i don't think is correct.

what i am exploring is that God has put in each of our essential beings something infinite - something eternal. that this is something linked to our lack of excuse ((per Romans 1)) for rejecting Him... so if that were a love of darkness/sin He created in us then we would have the excuse that He designed us to sin. this is not the case:

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (nkjv)
Truly, this only I have found:
that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.

i would further suggest that this infinity, eternal thing in each of our inner persons is directly linked to Genesis 2:7, that in creating us as living souls He mixed together dust and the breath of the Spirit of Life.

His own breath, i suggest: He is spirit and He is Life, and upon the separation of our spirit from our flesh our spirit returns to Him who gave it: it isn't destroyed; it returns to Him Who has immortality.

i note too that Ecclesiastes 3:11 is not specifically speaking of man alone, but says 'everything' beautiful in it's time, and 'their' hearts -- i believe this is applicable to all living souls.

 

[posthuman]

If salvation is a choice of man, then it must be of their intellect. I do NOT add to Scripture at all, it is just that you don't know how
to read and interpret it.

salvation is by faith,
which is not a physical property but a non-physical property that evidences itself physically.

the mind/heart are also non-physical, but exhibit physically. and it is in the heart/mind in which one believes ((i.e. has faith)), and with the ((physical)) mouth one confesses.

 

[rogerg]

salvation is by faith,
which is not a physical property but a non-physical property that evidences itself physically.

the mind/heart are also non-physical, but exhibit physically. and it is in the heart/mind in which one believes ((i.e. has faith)), and with the ((physical)) mouth one confesses.

Respectfully, faith is a gift given by the faith of Christ to those who are to be saved. Whoever believes that faith is obtained through the wisdom or intellect of man, they are under work and law, not grace, because anything that a man must do of himself to obtain it, makes it a work - it is the doing that makes it a work.



Please read the below carefully

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

 

[posthuman]

Respectfully, faith is a gift given by the faith of Christ to those who are to be saved. Whoever believes that faith is obtained through the wisdom or intellect of man, they are under work and law, not grace, because anything that a man must do of himself to obtain it, makes it a work - it is the doing that makes it a work.



Please read the below carefully

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

i am simply arguing that the mind/heart is not a physical thing. it is non-physical. so what comes out of, proceeds from, and dwells in the mind/heart of a man is not physical:

for example. our intellect, our thoughts, our belief, our faith, our hope, our love. these are non-physical things.

 

[rogerg]

i am simply arguing that the mind/heart is not a physical thing. it is non-physical. so what comes out of, proceeds from, and dwells in the mind/heart of a man is not physical:

for example. our intellect, our thoughts, our belief, our faith, our hope, our love. these are non-physical things.

Okay, but my point was that they would have to have originated by our work unless they come as a gift.

 

[posthuman]

Respectfully, faith is a gift given by the faith of Christ to those who are to be saved. Whoever believes that faith is obtained through the wisdom or intellect of man, they are under work and law, not grace, because anything that a man must do of himself to obtain it, makes it a work - it is the doing that makes it a work.



Please read the below carefully

[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

[Heb 11:1 KJV] 1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

please consider this:

2 Kings 6:1-7
And the sons of the prophets said to Elisha, "See now, the place where we dwell with you is too small for us. Please, let us go to the Jordan, and let every man take a beam from there, and let us make there a place where we may dwell."
So he answered, "Go."
Then one said, "Please consent to go with your servants." And he answered, "I will go." So he went with them.
And when they came to the Jordan, they cut down trees. But as one was cutting down a tree, the iron ax head fell into the water; and he cried out and said, "Alas, master! For it was borrowed."
So the man of God said, "Where did it fall?" And he showed him the place.
So he cut off a stick, and threw it in there; and he made the iron float.
Therefore he said, "Pick it up for yourself."
So he reached out his hand and took it.


The Jor-Dan is the river of death proceeding from the city of Adam. it means 'flow down' and it stops at the dead sea.

The axe head is a precious thing worth more than a man's life.

It is borrowed.

The Man of God puts the BRANCH into the waters of flowing-to-death and raises the precious borrowed thing worth more than an earthly life.

this is a clear picture of salvation, testifying of Christ: the testimony of Christ is the proper interpretation of scripture.


so here is my question:
why must the man reach out and take the axe head?

 

[posthuman]

Okay, but my point was that they would have to be from our work unless they come as a gift.

even human intellect is a gift. remember Nebuchadnezzar?