Baptism, the simple version.

DJT_47 · May 10, 2023

Thanks. I agree that Pentecost and what occurred in Acts 10 are the two Baptismal events. The are corporate in nature. At Pentecost the Jews were Baptized into the Spirit or if one refers - immersed into the power of the Spirit. In chapter 10, it the same thing to the Gentiles. Thus, to the Jew first - then the Gentiles. Therefore, the whole of the church was Baptized in these two events. everywhere else in Scripture, when Baptism of the Spirit is being discussed, it always looks to the past.

As to individual baptism in the Spirit - I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest individual Baptism in the Spirit - those verses seem to imply more of blessing or filling of one with the gifts of the Spirit. I agree, this is not taking place today.

However, this is not my point of contention.

You keep saying, that what took place in Acts, is the fulfillment of John 3:3-10. It is not. It is the fulfillment of the following:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Pentecost was the partial fulfillment of this promise but this has nothing to do with John 3:3-10. Every believer from the first days of the OT to the NT church age have experienced the New Birth, It is God moving upon the fallen person and regenerating them to spiritual life. The giving of a new nature, a new heart, hearing ears and seeing eyes. This is why our Lord asked this question:

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?

It's not infividual baptism of the Spirit as referenced in Acts 2, that is simply the indwelling of the Spirit which as stated, baptized believers receive per Acts 2:38
Gift (singular) of the Spirit or Holy Ghost.

And no, it's not John 3:3-10, but rather Luke 3, and specifically verse 16 which also fulfills the Joel prophesy as noted in Acts. You must be thinking of someone else's comments, not mine. And it also fulfills the Luke 24:49 which was Jesus instructions to his apostles as also referenced in Acts 1:2 and 5. Acts 2 completes it all; the baptism of the Spirit and the power from on high promised to the apostles which they then demonstrated and administered by the laying on of their hands, enabling the manifestation of the Spirit, or gifts.

mphsmom · May 10, 2023

Baptism is not a requirement for Salvation. Baptism and sharing the Lord's Supper (communion) are the 2 things Jesus asks us to do in obedience to Him.
An example would be the thief on the cross next to Jesus. The thief accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior and Jesus told him that today he would be in paradise with the Lord. The thief was never baptized but was saved.

DJT_47 · May 10, 2023

mphsmom said:

Here's a repost if mine from elsewhere on this forum whuch should clarify for you the misunderstanding you have of the thief on the cross

Also, baptism is an absolute requirement of salvation.

REPOST

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

mailmandan · May 11, 2023

mphsmom said:

Amen! A common argument used by water-salvationists in an attempt to "get around" the thief on the cross being saved through faith "apart from water baptism" is, "the thief was not subject to baptism because he died under the Old Testament mandate. (Others may argue how do we know he was not already water baptized). I've heard it all.

So let's see, after the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Acts 2:38, we read - "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.." and before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus, in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, we read - John came baptizing in the wilderness and preaching a "baptism of repentance for the remission of sins."

So in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3, was this baptism of repentance FOR (in order to obtain) the remission of sins or was it or FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) the remission of sins received upon repentance? It would have to be the latter in order to agree with the Old Testament mandate argument from water-salvationists. In Matthew 3:11, we read: I baptize you with water FOR repentance.. If translated "in order to obtain" the verse does not make sense. I baptize you with water FOR (in order to obtain) repentance? or I baptize you with water FOR (in regards to/on the basis of) repentance? Obviously, the latter.

Whatever baptism is "for" in Acts 2:38, it's "for" in Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3. Water baptism is "in regards to" remission of sins received upon repentance. So the water baptism is not necessary for salvation under the Old Testament mandate, but is necessary for salvation under the New Testament mandate argument doesn't hold water.

Before AND after Pentecost, salvation is through belief/faith "apart from water baptism" (Luke 7:50; 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17-18; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:2-6; 5:1; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

mailmandan said:

You make no sense, and you still don't understand the significance and distinction between the old covenant and new as relates to the thief.

Even if the thief was baptized previously, it would have been unto John's baptism, which was and is not the same as being baptized into Christ.

All those baptized unto John's baptism had to be rebaptized such as were the Ephesians as recorded in Acts 19 1-7. As I stated previously as well as in my writing on the misconceptions of the thief on the cross, you couldn't be baptized into Christ while he was alive nor into his death.

The baptism into Christ not only affords one the remission of sins, but also enables the gift of the Holy Ghost to indwell you, and also enables being added to the body of Christ by the Lord which is his church per verse 47 of Acts 2. You can cherry pick scriptures that indicate partial requirements of salvation and ignor those relating ho baptism, but that won't make them go away. When all pertinent scriptures are considered, you end up with the following, all of which are required to be saved.
1. Belief and faith
2. Confession of your belief
3. Repentance
4. Water immersion (baptism)

That's what's required which is very clearly delineated by the scriptures.

awelight · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

I repeat, not all of these are necessary for ones Eternal Salvation. You are border-lining upon "works salvation", if not out right crossing it.

I think the better order here, would be:

1. Believing
2. Repentance
3. Confession of faith
4. Water immersion.

God's Grace enables a person to understand and believe the Gospel. In Believing, that person begins to understand the true nature of SIN and that their sins had a part to play in the necessity of Jesus Christ's death. Simply put - their sins killed their Savior. This crushes the person into Repentance before God. That person then finds a local assembly to partner with likeminded believers. In this public forum, the individual makes a confession of Faith and demonstrates their solidarity with the Gospel message. Out of a good conscience this person enters into Baptism. As such, demonstrates their solidarity with Christ's death and the hope of the Resurrection.

I like this article I ran across and it's explanation for water Baptism:

"The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation."

awelight · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Yes, I may have posted part of my answer thinking about what another had said. Therefore, let me ask a clarifying question.

Do you see the works of the Spirit here in Acts as the same thing as the "New Birth" or "Being born from above" or "born again"? (Three different ways of saying the same thing.) Many equate being "Born Again", with the Baptism of the Spirit. Just want to clarify where you are on this issue.

As to Acts 2 and 10, as well as Luke 3:16 and 24:49 - we seem to be closely aligned.

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

awelight said:

I repeat, not all of these are necessary for ones Eternal Salvation. You are border-lining upon "works salvation", if not out right crossing it.

I think the better order here, would be:

1. Believing
2. Repentance
3. Confession of faith
4. Water immersion.

God's Grace enables a person to understand and believe the Gospel. In Believing, that person begins to understand the true nature of SIN and that their sins had a part to play in the necessity of Jesus Christ's death. Simply put - their sins killed their Savior. This crushes the person into Repentance before God. That person then finds a local assembly to partner with likeminded believers. In this public forum, the individual makes a confession of Faith and demonstrates their solidarity with the Gospel message. Out of a good conscience this person enters into Baptism. As such, demonstrates their solidarity with Christ's death and the hope of the Resurrection.

I like this article I ran across and it's explanation for water Baptism:

"The belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is also known as "baptismal regeneration." It is our contention that baptism is an important step of obedience for a Christian, but we adamantly reject baptism as being required for salvation. We strongly believe that each and every Christian should be water baptized by immersion. Baptism illustrates a believer’s identification with Christ’s death, burial, and resurrection. Romans 6:3-4 declares, “Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.” The action of being immersed in the water illustrates dying and being buried with Christ. The action of coming out of the water pictures Christ’s resurrection.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation. To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus’ death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ’s death in order to make it sufficient for salvation. Jesus’ death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus’ payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation."

There is no such thing as "works salvation" as relates to baptism. It's a matter of obedience. If God says do it, you either do it or not. And in the case of baptism, it's a very obvious command, so, do it or not. Your choice.

Cameron143 · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Fulfilling a command is by definition a work of the law.

mphsmom · May 11, 2023

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism is supposed to be done in obedience to Christ once you are saved. If you say you have to be baptized to be saved, you are negating the work Christ did on the cross for us. Salvation come through Jesus Christ only.

mphsmom · May 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

We are not under the law. Christ fulfilled the law in letter and Spirit.

Magenta · May 11, 2023

awelight said:

Romans 11:32

Romans 11:33-36

Cameron143 · May 11, 2023

mphsmom said:

That's the point to the poster it was sent to. By works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

The work of what law is baptism?

Cameron143 · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Acts 2:38...repent and be baptized...it's a command. Fulfilling it in no way justifies someone.

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

Cameron143 said:

Yes it's s command and by being obedient and fulfilling it remits sin. Being disobedient and not fulfilling means you're still in sin, and if in sin you're not saved. Pretty straight forward.

mailmandan · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

What I shared makes perfect sense. You are just having a difficult time understanding anything beyond your biased, church indoctrination.

In regards to John's baptism, in Mark 1:4, was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or was it for "in regards to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance? *Be careful. John's baptism took place BEFORE Pentecost. Also, in Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. *Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? OR was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Getting water baptized in order to obtain repentance makes no sense at all. Repentance precedes water baptism. This was also BEFORE Pentecost.

Baptized into Christ does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ. That is accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what "sense" would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it's only in that sense.

So you are saying that EVERYONE who was baptized by John had to be re-baptized later or else they would not be saved? In regards to Acts 19:1-7, in verse 2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit which is the exception, not the rule. We also see the laying on of hands in Acts 8:16-17. Again, exception, not the rule.

According to your logic, everyone who died prior to the death of Christ and could not be baptized into Christ will perish. Your gospel just does not hold water. It is full of holes.

That is your biased interpretation, but it's false. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Acts 2:47, they were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9).

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine, and not distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

This sounds similar to the Campbellite 4 step plan of salvation, although they typically reverse the order of #2 and #3 in your list. Repentance actually precedes saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-48)

Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Let me know when you are ready to change your mind and believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

mailmandan said:

What I shared makes perfect sense. You are just having a difficult time understanding anything beyond your biased, church indoctrination.

In regards to John's baptism, in Mark 1:4, was this baptism of repentance for "in order to obtain" the forgiveness of sins or was it for "in regards to/on the basis of" the forgiveness of sins received upon repentance? *Be careful. John's baptism took place BEFORE Pentecost. Also, in Matthew 3:11, we read - I baptize you with water "for" repentance.. *Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? OR was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? Getting water baptized in order to obtain repentance makes no sense at all. Repentance precedes water baptism. This was also BEFORE Pentecost.

Baptized into Christ does not mean water baptized into the body of Christ. That is accomplished through Spirit baptism. (1 Corinthians 12:13) Now in what "sense" would a believer be "water baptized into Christ?" In the same "sense" that the Israelites were "baptized into Moses.." (1 Corinthians 10:2) The Israelites were not literally water baptized into the body of Moses here and there is little dispute that being "baptized into Moses" signified the open allegiance and public identification of the Israelites with Moses as their leader. Moses was formally recognized as the leader of the covenant people. Water baptism signifies our allegiance and public identification with Christ as our Savior, so it's only in that sense.

So you are saying that EVERYONE who was baptized by John had to be re-baptized later or else they would not be saved? In regards to Acts 19:1-7, in verse 2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit which is the exception, not the rule. We also see the laying on of hands in Acts 8:16-17. Again, exception, not the rule.

According to your logic, everyone who died prior to the death of Christ and could not be baptized into Christ will perish. Your gospel just does not hold water. It is full of holes.

That is your biased interpretation, but it's false. The only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

In regards to Acts 2:47, they were added to the Lord upon repentance/faith prior to receiving water baptism, just as we see in (Acts 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:7-9).

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

We must properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine, and not distort and pervert passages of scripture in an effort to "patch together" your so called gospel plan.

This sounds similar to the Campbellite 4 step plan of salvation, although they typically reverse the order of #2 and #3 in your list. Repentance actually precedes saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 20:21) Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation, but are chronologically together. (Romans 10:8-10) Water baptism "follows" saving belief/faith in Christ. (Acts 10:43-48)

Your false gospel is the result of bad semantics and flawed hermeneutics. Let me know when you are ready to change your mind and believe the gospel. (Romans 1:16)

Read the original Greek in the interlinear. The word is "eis" used in both Mark 1 and Matthew 3 for "in" and "for". There is no inference of what you're suggesting the wording means. It's clear, so clear a blind man could see it. And you continue to cherrypick scripture. Do you really think that in every instance recorded, the complete message was repeated? Wake up! You must put together the various elements found to get the complete message, i.e.; Romans 10:9-10 says belief and confession. Is that all? No. What about repentance? Why is that not mentioned there? Is it not necessary? You're the one that's messed up. Goodbye. Go pedal your nonsense and illogical logic to someone else.

Inquisitor · May 11, 2023

DJT_47 said:

Water baptism was a one-off event, an external ritual, a symbol of our death in Jesus. Then on rising from the baptism, a symbol of the new creation, the new life in Christ.

John the Baptist was signaling the arrival of the messiah, Jesus, just the same as the prophets. John's baptism would be fulfilled not in a physical way, but in a spiritual way.

John himself said that he baptized in water but the one coming after him. Would baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

Mark 1:8
I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 3:11
As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

DJT_47 · May 11, 2023

Inquisitor said:

Your words. You don't know what you're talking about. And the baptism with fire HAPPENED. Read Acts 1 and 2 which discusses this; and it happened to the apostles. That's not the norm nor does it happen today.

Baptism, the simple version.

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