Those who are alive and remain until the lords coming (those caught up/rapture) will not proceed those in Revelation 20:4 https://biblehub.com/kjv/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm
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The tribulation
- Thread starter JonathanBentley
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Those who are alive and remain until the lords coming (those caught up/rapture) will not proceed those in Revelation 20:4 https://biblehub.com/kjv/1_thessalonians/4-15.htm
I agree, and believe everyone of faith will be included, such as even Abraham who some may not consider to have suffered tribulation or had been 'exposed' to teh mark. I think the "mark" of a man, or the antichrist is the mind that rejects Christ as Lord. That is, as those that crucified him' regard that Jesus is, or was, even if an extraordinary man, "just a man."
But I seem to have a different understanding that Jesus "will not return until the last enemy is defeated." I would have to revisit that passage before I entirely agree with that exact assertion. Is my understanding that His death, burial and resurrection defeated death?
But I seem to have a different understanding that Jesus "will not return until the last enemy is defeated." I would have to revisit that passage before I entirely agree with that exact assertion. Is my understanding that His death, burial and resurrection defeated death?
1 Corinthians 15:
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Does this not imply that He must reign [for some span of time] before 'all enemies' are "put under his feet"...?
And, do you not realize - from other passages of scripture - that 'death' is not actually done away with until after the GWTJ and the new heaven and earth? ('death' will exist for as long as the 'old' sin-tainted earth exists)
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Does this not imply that He must reign [for some span of time] before 'all enemies' are "put under his feet"...?
And, do you not realize - from other passages of scripture - that 'death' is not actually done away with until after the GWTJ and the new heaven and earth? ('death' will exist for as long as the 'old' sin-tainted earth exists)
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People will commit sin during the millennium. People will live and die during the millennium. The only difference between the millennium and what we have now is that Jesus will be in charge - 'physics', etc. will remain the same. (Of course, He will "clean up" things a bit - but the base-level nature of our world will not change until it is done-away-with entirely.)
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Revelation 20:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This happens after the millennium. Do you think anyone is going to die when this happens?
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
This happens after the millennium. Do you think anyone is going to die when this happens?
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● Rev 16:13-15 . . Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they
came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out
of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons performing
miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather
them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
. . . Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his
clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.
There is much disagreement in our day as to signs indicating the extraction
described by 1Thess 4:16-17, but the events depicted in Revelation are
neither vague, typical, nor debatable. When all that stuff begins coming to
pass, smart ones will be on the lookout for a really big surprise.
● Matt 24:27 . . For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes
even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
WHAM, on scene; locked and loaded.
_
● Rev 16:13-15 . . Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they
came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out
of the mouth of the false prophet. They are spirits of demons performing
miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather
them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.
. . . Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his
clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.
There is much disagreement in our day as to signs indicating the extraction
described by 1Thess 4:16-17, but the events depicted in Revelation are
neither vague, typical, nor debatable. When all that stuff begins coming to
pass, smart ones will be on the lookout for a really big surprise.
● Matt 24:27 . . For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes
even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be.
WHAM, on scene; locked and loaded.
_
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The FIRST RESURRECTION is a sort of moniker for everyone of those resurrected via the Righteous Blood of Jesus, both those Jews in the Old Testament who are raised at the 2nd Coming, (as are those killed during the 70th week) and those raised Pre Trib both the alive and dead. God only has two Resurrections, the Righteous and the Wicked. The Pre Trib Rapture/Resurrection and the Post 2nd Coming Resurrection are all THE FIRST RESURRECTION because God sees only 2. The timings are not relevant to God.
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● Rev 16:2 . . And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every
stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of
the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Talents were a gross unit of gold equal to about 75-100 pounds.
Dropping a hail of boulders that size from the sky all over the globe will
be like a deadly implosion smashing, bashing, and crushing most everything
it touches: homes, barns, super markets, strip malls, sports arenas,
theaters, forests, pastures, crops, vehicles, etc. The natural world will surely
experience significan damage among the critters who live above ground, e.g.
hogs, deer, elk, ducks, geese, turkeys, cows, mustangs, monkeys, gorillas,
lions, tigers, hyenas, elephants, giraffes, etc.
Just imagine being caught out in the open when that hail starts. Finding
adequate shelter from such a bombardment of ice will be very difficult and
no doubt frightened people will be shrieking and screaming in mortal panic.
Curiously, people will know the hail is from God but it won't persuade them
to consider making peace with Him, instead; the hail will just make them
angry.
_
● Rev 16:2 . . And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every
stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of
the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Talents were a gross unit of gold equal to about 75-100 pounds.
Dropping a hail of boulders that size from the sky all over the globe will
be like a deadly implosion smashing, bashing, and crushing most everything
it touches: homes, barns, super markets, strip malls, sports arenas,
theaters, forests, pastures, crops, vehicles, etc. The natural world will surely
experience significan damage among the critters who live above ground, e.g.
hogs, deer, elk, ducks, geese, turkeys, cows, mustangs, monkeys, gorillas,
lions, tigers, hyenas, elephants, giraffes, etc.
Just imagine being caught out in the open when that hail starts. Finding
adequate shelter from such a bombardment of ice will be very difficult and
no doubt frightened people will be shrieking and screaming in mortal panic.
Curiously, people will know the hail is from God but it won't persuade them
to consider making peace with Him, instead; the hail will just make them
angry.
_
There are a few different thing
The administration (dispensation) of grace. (Eph 3:2) Which encapsulates the administration of the mystery of the one body.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
How much grace is there in Revelation ???
GRACE
It is used twice …. once in the opening salutation Rev 1:4 and once in the closing verse Rev 22:21.
Compare that to the 72 times it the seven Church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians. ….. If you want to include Acts (10x) and Timothy through Jude (34x)… which they all pertain to the administration of grace…. it is 116x
Being fair…. I would deduct 27x from all of the epistles where grace is used as an opening and closing salutation. Which would leave us with 89 total times grace being referred to …. But, all things being equal ….if we deduct the salutations from Revelation there would be ~ zero ~
IN CHRIST
Everything we have... and are….. is in Christ.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The words in Christ (and derivatives thereof) appear in Acts through the epistles pertaining to this administration of Grace 128 X
In Jesus Christ 4 …In Christ Jesus 40…. in Jesus 3…. in Christ 34 ….in the lord Jesus 3 ….. (epistles) in the Lord 44
Guess how many times it appears in Revelation … ~ zero ~ Additionally…. it does not appear in the OT or gospels. It’s not there because this administration started at Pentecost and ends when Christ returns for those in Jesus/in Christ.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16& 17…. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain (in Christ) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Temple
The following scripture give reference to the believers in this administration being the Temple (within context) and refers to either the entire body of Christ or a group of believers in the body of Christ.
In the following verses referring to the body of Christ we are the NAOS which is used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself…. consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies… It is only during this administration of grace that we are where God dwells ....we are the NAOS ….before Pentecost the holy of holies was a physical structure and after the gathering together unto him (rapture) it reverts back to a physical structure in Revelation .
1Co 3:16 &3:17, 1Co 6:19, 2Co 6:16, Eph 2:21.
Act 17:24, Act 7:48,
I don’t have time to go into the various differences between the Epistles and Revelation ….maybe later.
The administration (dispensation) of grace. (Eph 3:2) Which encapsulates the administration of the mystery of the one body.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
How much grace is there in Revelation ???
GRACE
It is used twice …. once in the opening salutation Rev 1:4 and once in the closing verse Rev 22:21.
Compare that to the 72 times it the seven Church epistles of Romans through Thessalonians. ….. If you want to include Acts (10x) and Timothy through Jude (34x)… which they all pertain to the administration of grace…. it is 116x
Being fair…. I would deduct 27x from all of the epistles where grace is used as an opening and closing salutation. Which would leave us with 89 total times grace being referred to …. But, all things being equal ….if we deduct the salutations from Revelation there would be ~ zero ~
IN CHRIST
Everything we have... and are….. is in Christ.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
The words in Christ (and derivatives thereof) appear in Acts through the epistles pertaining to this administration of Grace 128 X
In Jesus Christ 4 …In Christ Jesus 40…. in Jesus 3…. in Christ 34 ….in the lord Jesus 3 ….. (epistles) in the Lord 44
Guess how many times it appears in Revelation … ~ zero ~ Additionally…. it does not appear in the OT or gospels. It’s not there because this administration started at Pentecost and ends when Christ returns for those in Jesus/in Christ.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:16& 17…. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain (in Christ) shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Temple
The following scripture give reference to the believers in this administration being the Temple (within context) and refers to either the entire body of Christ or a group of believers in the body of Christ.
In the following verses referring to the body of Christ we are the NAOS which is used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself…. consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies… It is only during this administration of grace that we are where God dwells ....we are the NAOS ….before Pentecost the holy of holies was a physical structure and after the gathering together unto him (rapture) it reverts back to a physical structure in Revelation .
1Co 3:16 &3:17, 1Co 6:19, 2Co 6:16, Eph 2:21.
Act 17:24, Act 7:48,
I don’t have time to go into the various differences between the Epistles and Revelation ….maybe later.
.
● Rev 19:19-21 . .Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their
armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his
army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had
performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his
image.
. . .The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of
the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
The potent weapon proceeding from that person's mouth is speech; which
causes me to wonder why more people weren't afraid of Jesus back in his
day because if by speech he could cure leprosy then by speech he could've
caused someone to come down with leprosy; and if by speech he could
energize a crippled man's legs, then by speech he could've put somebody in
a wheel chair; and if by speech he could restore someone's corpse to life,
then by speech he could've made people drop dead to the floor; and if by
speech he could cure blindness, then by speech he could've put people's
eyes out; and if by speech he could multiply loaves and fishes, then by
speech he could've caused famine; and if by speech he could calm a storm,
then by speech he could've caused a hurricane, a typhoon, and/or a tornado.
David's combat with Goliath was an encounter that was possible for David to
win; but I see no chance of anybody's success in a fight with Christ when he
has at his disposal all the miraculous abilities of the supreme being who,
according to the book of Genesis, created a fully functioning cosmos-- all its
forms of life, matter, and energy --by nothing more than His voice.
_
● Rev 19:19-21 . .Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their
armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his
army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had
performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had
deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his
image.
. . .The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of
the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
The potent weapon proceeding from that person's mouth is speech; which
causes me to wonder why more people weren't afraid of Jesus back in his
day because if by speech he could cure leprosy then by speech he could've
caused someone to come down with leprosy; and if by speech he could
energize a crippled man's legs, then by speech he could've put somebody in
a wheel chair; and if by speech he could restore someone's corpse to life,
then by speech he could've made people drop dead to the floor; and if by
speech he could cure blindness, then by speech he could've put people's
eyes out; and if by speech he could multiply loaves and fishes, then by
speech he could've caused famine; and if by speech he could calm a storm,
then by speech he could've caused a hurricane, a typhoon, and/or a tornado.
David's combat with Goliath was an encounter that was possible for David to
win; but I see no chance of anybody's success in a fight with Christ when he
has at his disposal all the miraculous abilities of the supreme being who,
according to the book of Genesis, created a fully functioning cosmos-- all its
forms of life, matter, and energy --by nothing more than His voice.
_
In Revelation 20:4 https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/20-4.htm it states that they lived and reined with Christ a thousand years(so it's prior to the Mill.),,and it states that those who did not worship the image ,or take the mark are in the first resurrection (it's impossible for the first resurrection to take place until after the image of the beast is made and the mark is enforced according to Scripture).
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Actually the first resurrection is in THREE PHASES (just like a Hebrew harvest). Which means that your concept is incorrect.
PHASE I -- Christ the First Fruits (AD 30)
PHASE II -- The resurrection of all the saints who have passed on. (This is at the coming of Christ for the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church). (STILL FUTURE)
PHASE III -- The Tribulation Saints who were beheaded. This is just prior to the Millennium. (While this is where "the first resurrection" is mention, we need to go back to 1 Corinthians 15 for the full picture). (AFTER THE REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST)
1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE PROGRESSION OF THE "FIRST RESURRECTION"
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept...
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
PHASE I -- Christ the First Fruits (AD 30)
PHASE II -- The resurrection of all the saints who have passed on. (This is at the coming of Christ for the Resurrection/Rapture of the Church). (STILL FUTURE)
PHASE III -- The Tribulation Saints who were beheaded. This is just prior to the Millennium. (While this is where "the first resurrection" is mention, we need to go back to 1 Corinthians 15 for the full picture). (AFTER THE REIGN OF THE ANTICHRIST)
1 CORINTHIANS 15: THE PROGRESSION OF THE "FIRST RESURRECTION"
20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept...
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
Those raised and judged in Rev. 20:4 are judged in the 1000 year reign of Christ, not before the 2nd coming. STOP, looking at it via "NUMBERS" per se, if I pitch in the first game and also in the first inning, and Sam pitches in the 3rd inning, and Bill pitches in the 9th inning, we all pitched in the FIRST GAME right? God is designated only TWO RESURRECTINS, men are trying to limit the TIME with which God can complete those Resurrections.
Again, its TWO TYPES, the timing is not relevant.
Again, its TWO TYPES, the timing is not relevant.
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