Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
- Thread starter IsaiahA
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N
Niki7
Guest
How. It's all predetermined. Calvinists do not believe we have freedom of choice anyway, so maybe John is just abiding in his predetermination
Y'all just do not seem to see the myriad problems with what you believe.
N
Niki7
Guest
But what caused the Ninevites to repent and turn?
It was God working within them that caused them to turn from their evil way and to repent.
You always seem to miss that part and leave everything as beginning and ending with man's will.
[Phl 2:13 KJV] 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure.
I'm always amazed that people struggle with the compatibility of God's sovereign determination and men's independent choices. God is perfectly able to bring about all that He purposes regardless of what men do. In fact, men's intentions and behavior bring to pass that which He has predetermined. Such is the case with angels as well.
You tell me. God told Hezekiah that he was going to do. After Hezekiah prayed, God allowed him to live another 15 years. God changed his mind about Hezekiah dying. God did not lie.
David knew this about God as well. The man after God's own heart.
2 Samuel 12
14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the Lord struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the Lord, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
I stated over and over, when man is faced with the word of God and man repents, God has all authority to change his direction and not do what he said he would do. It's called grace. It's called choice when faced with God's word.
Are you saying that all things are predetermined by God? Fatalism? Please say no.
I dont believe God ever changed His Mind, He is immutable. Mal 3:6
For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. David's prayer didn't change Gods purpose for the child, and yet God was still gracious unto David
It means just what it says. Read Daniel 4:35.
If fatalism were true, that would make some of prayer irrelevant. But even prayer is to be requested according to the will of God...not my will but thine.
I'm always amazed that it isn't obvious when someone affirming God's sovereign determination contradicts that by later making the erroneous claim affirming man's independent choices.
Left to himself, man never will - he can't. For it to be grace, it has to be given before its need is recognized or wanted by man.
Choice is meaningless when it is set before a dead man.
Both are true. Read it for yourself in Acts 2 in Peter's sermon. Verse 23...the determinate counsel of God and men's wicked hands.
Good try. Both are mentioned. Imagine a bigger God who is great enough to cause all things to work for good for Christians regardless of the choices they make...Romans 8:28. This is the same principle.
Your idea of God is too small.
I didn't try anything.
And I won't debate this with you. You don't understand your contradiction in your errant argument, and you'll never learn of it because you are obstinate.
I'm sorry you feel that way. Please forgive my lack of charity in communicating with you.
That said, I showed you from Acts 2:23 that God credits the crucifixion of Jesus both to His determinate counsel and to the actions of wicked men. God is great enough to accomplish His purposes even in the choices men make independently of Him.
If He was not able to do this, why would you have any confidence in His ability to make all things, even the things you did independently of Him, for your good?
Sure. A man decides where he is going to go. And it coincides with where God wants him to go. The man still acts. He devises his way. And actually gets himself to where he is going. Turns out, that's exactly the same plan God had for him.