Spiritual gifts:Unconfusing them part 3 - analogy

[Cameron143]

That's a nice dodge.

Jesus was never unable to do miracles. But He did always do what He saw the Father doing. No faith meant no Father at work there. Thus, no miracles.

 

[Nehemiah6]

No faith meant no Father at work there. Thus, no miracles.

That is not entirely true. Do you want of list of the healings (or other miracles) which Christ did WHEN THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH OR EXPECTATION OF A MIRACLE?

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period. And we must exclude "faith healers" as well as the "prayer of faith" which does not involve any human healers.

 

[Niki7]

That is not entirely true. Do you want of list of the healings (or other miracles) which Christ did WHEN THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH OR EXPECTATION OF A MIRACLE?

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period. And we must exclude "faith healers" as well as the "prayer of faith" which does not involve any human healers.

Hey no worries. Ain't no one gonna force a healing on you. Or the gifts or anything else you have decided you do not want. None of those things are salvic anyway. However, they are for this earth and not the one to come.

So. rest easy and enjoy life with what faith in Christ you do have.

 

[Niki7]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case, and that people are being healed daily or weekly in absolutely every church through healers. I do not believe you will have any evidence whatsoever (and let's also forget the "faith healers" and their shenanigans since they operate outside local churches).

Let's also keep the matter of divine miracles through the prayer of faith as a SEPARATE CATEGORY since that is God's direct intervention without any intermediary. This would not be the same as your claim.

I was healed of something just this past week. And not a small thing either.

No news media involved though so I guess that means in your economy it is not true.

whatever.

Thank you Jesus!

 

[Cameron143]

That is not entirely true. Do you want of list of the healings (or other miracles) which Christ did WHEN THERE WAS ABSOLUTELY NO FAITH OR EXPECTATION OF A MIRACLE?

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period. And we must exclude "faith healers" as well as the "prayer of faith" which does not involve any human healers.

I don't disagree. Faith isn't the only way God works. But Jesus wasn't limited in His power. He was limited by His obedience.

 

[CS1]

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you. You claim the gift of miraculous healings is present today. So either put up or shut up.

BTW regardless of what happened in the hometown of Christ, the fact remains that He performed miracles DAILY even when people did not ask for healing or believe that He could heal.

I have my proof And my story:. )

Nope, Don't need to shut up either. Healing and miracles happen every day. I am many see them. I have seen cancer healed, Eyes healed, heart conditions, the lame walk, and deaf hear. I have seen demons cast out 100's saved. What kind of miracle would you need to see, and how many? I have a question for you and man has a heart attack and stops breathing heart is not beating for 6 minutes. Is he dead?

And if the Doctor gave him chest compressions and electrical shock and the heart started beating, was that God he did or man?

 

[CS1]

I don't disagree. Faith isn't the only way God works. But Jesus wasn't limited in His power. He was limited by His obedience.

without faith, it is impossible to please him. Those who come to God must believe that HE is and rewarded them that seek HIM Diligently. Jesus said to have faith. And faith without works is dead.

 

[Cameron143]

without faith, it is impossible to please him. Those who come to God must believe that HE is and rewarded them that seek HIM Diligently. Jesus said to have faith. And faith without works is dead.

Does God give wisdom? Does God give sorrow that leads to repentance?
There are numerous ways to see God at work than simply faith.
It isn't that what you say isn't true. It just doesn't apply to the preceeding line of thought.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Let's just forget Youtube, TV, etc and let's assume that the spiritual gift of healing miracles through Christians is a present reality. If this were true then every evangelical and fundamental church would have AT LEAST one healer if not several, and this would be a worldwide phenomenon.

As it was during the Charismatic outpouring back in the '70s. "Evangelical, and Fundamental Churches" for the most part didn't want anything to do with it. Those of us who did take part in it saw plenty. That you missed it all is your problem, not ours.

Also spiritual gifts are not limited to any denomination according to Scripture. So whether the churches were Pentecostal, Baptist, Brethren, or non-denominational, we would be receiving reports about healings on a regular and steady basis right across the board. Perhaps those healers would even be going into hospitals and emptying them out. The news media would report these events on a daily or weekly basis.

The Holy Spirit tends to operate, in Churches that allow Him to. Baptists, Brethren, and even Pentecostals etc. don't want anything to do with Him or anything beyond their own defined paradigms about how things are supposed to work, and I suspect you already know it.

[/quote]Now it is up to you to provide hard evidence that this is actually the case [/quote]

PSST!!! It's up to the HOLY SPIRIT to work in the visible churches according to HIS OWN plans. I have no responsibility to "Prove" anything to you or any other Pentehostile. Believe, and limit your version of God any way you please.

Your "opinion" doesn't handicap those of us who know differently at all.

 

[Magenta]

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you. You claim the gift
of miraculous healings is present today. So either put up or shut up.

BTW regardless of what happened in the hometown of Christ, the fact remains that He performed
miracles DAILY even when people did not ask for healing or believe that He could heal.

That is a claim you cannot substantiate.

So either put up or shut up.

 

[CS1]

Does God give wisdom? Does God give sorrow that leads to repentance?
There are numerous ways to see God at work than simply faith.
It isn't that what you say isn't true. It just doesn't apply to the preceeding line of thought.

The Holy Spirit Convicts the person to and creates a godly sorrow for one to see their need for Repentance as Jesus said HE would do in John chapter 16:8

Jesus also said these signs shall follow them that believe Mark 16: 15-18


15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

It is not. Either or, it is all that can be done as we are to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and see HIS word confirmed with signs and wonders.

I love the Book of Acts because many of those Cencessionist fail to read is Acts chapter 4:33

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.


The reason why Miracles happen was to testify that Jesus was alive and not dead. There was no other name used that people were healed of as that same Name Will never lose its power.

Peter said in 2Pet 3:3-4
" 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

Nothing has stopped.

Paul said to Timothy/ 2Tim3:1-9 :

1But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,

7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

 

[Artios1]

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the spirit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Very nicely put!
And …I am insistent about the word Manifestation …since that is what God calls them.

 

[Cameron143]

The Holy Spirit Convicts the person to and creates a godly sorrow for one to see their need for Repentance as Jesus said HE would do in John chapter 16:8

Jesus also said these signs shall follow them that believe Mark 16: 15-18


15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

It is not. Either or, it is all that can be done as we are to desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and see HIS word confirmed with signs and wonders.

I love the Book of Acts because many of those Cencessionist fail to read is Acts chapter 4:33

33 And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.


The reason why Miracles happen was to testify that Jesus was alive and not dead. There was no other name used that people were healed of as that same Name Will never lose its power.

Peter said in 2Pet 3:3-4
" 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.”

Nothing has stopped.

Paul said to Timothy/ 2Tim3:1-9 :

1But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come:
2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God,
5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. And from such people turn away!

6 For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts,

7 always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. 8 Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith;

9 but they will progress no further, for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

I'm not a cessationist. I made a simple point about the power of God. That was it.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Yes, they are, and you can't provide one that says the gifts of the Holy Spirit, or healing are not for today and for the believer.

Amen!

 

[Bruce_Leiter]

If I said to you I will give you a gift but you must do something first before you can get it. You immediately start thinking, wow, wonder what I'm going to get? Will it be a car, or a TV, or boat, or ??? And what will I have to do?

Then I tell you what the deal is and what the gift is

The gift is not a car, or TV, or boat, but simply money. With that money, you can then get other gifts, like the car, or TV, or boat.

This is the meaning of Acts 2:38 and 1 Corinthians 12:8-10.

The money is the primary gift and once you have the money you can then obtain secondary gifts with or by it.

The money, the gift in this analogy is the Holy Ghost, the primary gift.

The car, TV, and boat are the secondary gifts, the spiritual gifts listed in 1 Cor 12:8-10.

And what you have to do to obtain the primary gift (the Holy Ghost), before you can get the secondary gifts (the spiritual gifts or manifestations of the spirit), is repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins, per Acts 2:38.

38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The Holy Spirit creates in believers faith, repentance, and at least one spiritual gift, when we first believe in Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to eternal life in heaven and the resurrection of our bodies for life with him in that final new universe.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

That's a nice dodge. The burden of proof is on you.

Nope, it isn't. We've got absolutely NOTHING to prove to somebody whose mind is already made up to the contrary.

I remember Ern Baxter being attacked (by Pentecostals) because he'd been asked by a CHristian, who managed the Clydesdales that pulled the Budweiser beer wagon, to pray for the healing of one of the horses that was desperately sick.

The religious critics maintained that God would NEVER HEAL a horse used in Beer commercials. Ern, however, prayed for the horse, that subsequently recovered.

Ern said that he doubted that what the horse was used for would have any effect on whether God would move in healing for it. But he said, HEY!! if you get in the same situation, just let your horse die. God heals horses.

So when one of your loved ones gets seriously sick - just let them die. God heals.

 

[DJT_47]

The Holy Spirit creates in believers faith, repentance, and at least one spiritual gift, when we first believe in Jesus' death and resurrection as the only way to eternal life in heaven and the resurrection of our bodies for life with him in that final new universe.

Where does it say you will receive at least one spiritual gift? No such thing in the bible.

 

[Dino246]

In any event, the ones who claim that healers are present in churches today must either provide hard evidence or admit that the spiritual gift of healing was reserved for the apostolic period.

That's a false dichotomy built around a carefully constructed statement. You may not be a lawyer, but you act like one at times.

 

[CS1]

Where does it say you will receive at least one spiritual gift? No such thing in the bible.

If you seek it, you will find Him, Jesus said in Luke 11:13

13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

 

[DJT_47]

If you seek it, you will find Him, Jesus said in Luke 11:13

13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!"

Giving and receiving the Holy Spirit is exactly that: the Holy Spirit and not gifts manifested by or through the Holy Spirit.