Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
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Another scoffer I seeSo where does Jesus fit in? Pretty sure Calvin didn't die for anyone, but he did see to it that those who disagreed with him were sometimes burnt at the stake.
Not too Christian of him
Amen in the Purpose of God which is grounded in Eternity, Christ was slain from the foundation Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
And who would He be slain for ? Why those whose names were written in the book of life Rev 21:27
And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
Also those who believe were ordained to eternal life prior to believing Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
In the following verse there are two groups:
1. All men
2. Those that believe
If you state that the all men point to some elect group, then you must believe that all of the elect do not get saved, only those that believe.
1 Timothy 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The "all men" of 1 Tim 4:10, are only those that the Father gave to Christ. It cannot include any other than of those. That is why in order to understand scripture, we need to compare the spiritual with the spiritual and that no prophecy of scripture is of any private interpretation; that is, we should not just assume any one verse completes a doctrine.
[Jhn 6:36-37 KJV]
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
[1Co 2:13 KJV] 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[2Pe 1:20 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The word especially is misunderstood, its a word that actually clarifies who the all men are, the word means particularly, so He is the Saviour of all men particularly believers, so Paul is affirming limited atonement. He goes on to say in the next letter this 2 Tim 2:9-10
9 Wherein I suffer trouble, as an evil doer, even unto bonds; but the word of God is not bound.
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
Thank you, brightfame52, I wasn't clear and should have also included that aspect in my reply - I should have also mentioned that those who come to Christ - those whom the Father gave to Him - are the elect of God, and only the elect.
N
Niki7
Guest
I responded to what you wrote above. It certainly appears you are saying righteousness was to Christ....you go so far as to say not Abraham.
Of course God was never unrighteous which is why I responded to your confusing post.
N
Niki7
Guest
It's Monday so my mind is not fully functional right now. Anyway, only those of the elect come to true belief/faith because true belief is given as a fruit of the Spirit, but upon becoming born-again - a result not cause- so, it is the elect who is exclusively the subject of
my posts.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
N
Niki7
Guest
I don't think you see past your noise er nose. If someone scoffs, it is very possible that your special rude replies invite them to do so.
As usual with Calvinists, you persuade yourself you cannot do anything wrong because you have no choice in your salvation so you are safe no matter what. But surely you can choose how you talk to people or are you saying God is putting words in your mouth ?
In which case you make God guilty of what you do
The only way God is the saviour of everybody is in a providential way which is more to be understood as preservation, like here Neh 9:6
Thou, even thou, art Lord alone; thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshippeth thee.
However I believe Paul is speaking about Salvation
N
Niki7
Guest
It doesn't seem that brightflame is shedding much light on your inability to reply other than to act like your mentor Calvin.
I suppose we should all be grateful that burning at the stake is kind of frowned upon these days.
Faith was given to Abraham as a gift through the fruit of the Spirit, just as it is given to all of the elect. Abraham attributed his faith to the righteousness of God, and not to himself, as do all who become born-again understand that their faith it is from God's righteousness, not their own.
Anyway, the important point is do you understand now? BTW your post above is pretty confusing too.
This help? "and he" (Abraham) counted it to him (God) for righteousness".
[Gen 15:6 KJV] 6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
ḥāšaḇ
- to think, plan, esteem, calculate, invent, make a judgment, imagine, count
[Rom 3:22 KJV] 22 Even the righteousness of God [which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
[Phl 3:9 KJV] 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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Niki7
Guest
Reading some of the thread, I notice that you seem to use the accusation of scoffing as your fallback position. The problem is that you have fallen for the anger displayed by your mentor as the way to respond to those who have accepted Christ as their Savior without including T.U.L.I.P. as part of the formula.
Instead of engaging in reason (and I don't care how many times you think you explained what you believe; you have the option of pointing people to one of those posts wherein you explained yourself) you resort to misrepresentation of what others say and falsely accuse them of scoffing at Jesus when they were actually refuting your repetition of Calvins false claims. That does not create credibility on your part so people are left with the same impression I got. You are simply rude.
Calvin was raised Catholic and he never really understood salvation by grace as God bestowed upon us. For that matter, it is understood by historians that Calvin never even admitted to salvation through Christ and never quit his former allegiance to his upbringing.
The best way he found to silence opposition, was to kill the opposer. In a way, being rude to people is an attempt to just shut them up.
Not working though if this thread is any indication.
Instead of engaging in reason (and I don't care how many times you think you explained what you believe; you have the option of pointing people to one of those posts wherein you explained yourself) you resort to misrepresentation of what others say and falsely accuse them of scoffing at Jesus when they were actually refuting your repetition of Calvins false claims. That does not create credibility on your part so people are left with the same impression I got. You are simply rude.
Calvin was raised Catholic and he never really understood salvation by grace as God bestowed upon us. For that matter, it is understood by historians that Calvin never even admitted to salvation through Christ and never quit his former allegiance to his upbringing.
The best way he found to silence opposition, was to kill the opposer. In a way, being rude to people is an attempt to just shut them up.
Not working though if this thread is any indication.
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Niki7
Guest
God accounted Abraham's faith as righteousness. Just as our faith in Christ and belief in Him are accounted to us for righteousness.
What Romans 3:22 is saying, is that the righteousness Paul is speaking of is given through faith in Jesus Christ. If you have a problem with the KJ, try a more understandable translation. God's righteousness is given to us by FAITH in His Son.
You can spin it any way you want or like, but it is our faith that is the clincher here. In Christ, we are righteous before God....we are not righteous by our acts or works.
What is happening, is that God is granting believers His righteousness in that we meet His standards through our faith in His Son.
21But now, apart from the law, the righteousness of God has been revealed, as attested by the Law and the Prophets. 22And this righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no distinction, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,…Romans 3
Having faith in Christ is a gift given to His elect through the fruit of the Spirit upon becoming born again. Whenever you read
"faith in Christ", understand that it (faith) came from God, and was not of themselves. We are righteous before God only because of the
faith we were given is from Christ and from which we were given His righteousness too with it.
You shouldn't just assume that a spiritual doctrine is self-explanatory in one verse.
Please, read this verse closely, especially the highlighted portion. Do you see the "by the faith of Christ even we have
believed in Jesus Christ"? That means if we truly believe it is only because we were given that belief by/from Christ's faith.
[Gal 2:16 KJV] 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
[Gal 5:22 KJV] 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,