Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
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If someone doesn't know and trust the gospel, then they don't know God - they can't know
the true God because He is revealed by His gospel and His gospel is Christ, which they are blind to.
And if they don't know Him, then all that remains as being god, is the god of this world, which, by the verses you posted,
it is evident, that is the one they know. God cannot be understood apart from His gospel.
the true God because He is revealed by His gospel and His gospel is Christ, which they are blind to.
And if they don't know Him, then all that remains as being god, is the god of this world, which, by the verses you posted,
it is evident, that is the one they know. God cannot be understood apart from His gospel.
God is NOT made evident in/by His creation to those whose minds have been blinded, otherwise, they wouldn't be blind.
To know Him is the evident part of evident - Christ is the Truth; Christ is God. Paul speaks of Christ, and of their lack of knowing Him -
They held Christ in unrighteousness.
[Rom 1:18-19 KJV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
To know Him is the evident part of evident - Christ is the Truth; Christ is God. Paul speaks of Christ, and of their lack of knowing Him -
They held Christ in unrighteousness.
[Rom 1:18-19 KJV]
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.
I have been following your discussions, and have a question .
Do you believe the scriptures teach that there is a spiritual Israel, that does not include all of the nation of Israel? (Rev 5:9)
Did not most of spiritual turn away from God, and worshiped idols? (Rom 11), and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the the gospel, but God said that all spiritual Israel shall be saved (verse 26).
Do you interpret Zeph 3:11-13 as most of spiritual Israel that are blinded to the gospel, and also the remnant, to be the total of the elect?.
Do you believe the scriptures teach that there is a spiritual Israel, that does not include all of the nation of Israel? (Rev 5:9)
Did not most of spiritual turn away from God, and worshiped idols? (Rom 11), and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the the gospel, but God said that all spiritual Israel shall be saved (verse 26).
Do you interpret Zeph 3:11-13 as most of spiritual Israel that are blinded to the gospel, and also the remnant, to be the total of the elect?.
Way to contradict what Scripture says right there in what you quoted from it.
If God was not made evident in creation as you claim against the very words of Scripture, they would have an excuse. But they do not.
Psalm 19:1
If God was not made evident in creation as you claim against the very words of Scripture, they would have an excuse. But they do not.
Psalm 19:1
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matt 11:27
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Sorry man by nature cant know the True God by natural creation, Rom 1:18ff proves that, God must be revealed Spiritually through Christ, and its not a revelation for all men, but for them God has given the Son in election.
But I know you believe that the natural man can follow the trees and clouds and find God instead of it coming through the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ !
To a spiritually dead person, that which is evident, cannot be correctly understood or perceived though evident -
and all of the unsaved are spiritually dead - to include those of the verses you posted.
Christ specifically is the focus of those verses - they are not a general independent discussion of God apart from Christ.
He alone is the Saviour, so besides obtaining justification by Him, there is no excuse possible, nor could one be offered,
so therefore, those verses could only be speaking of Christ.
Look, I'd really rather not have to go through each of those verses, so hopefully it will suffice to say that
when taken in context, they are about Christ, even though at first blush they may seem not to be - I know that they are
not easily deciphered.
They are set-off with the following verse. It lays the foundation and the borders for the subsequent verses, and which verse they
tie back into. I believe they should be understood within the context of Christ as Saviour as Paul so tells us in verse 15.
[Rom 1:15 KJV] 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
and all of the unsaved are spiritually dead - to include those of the verses you posted.
Christ specifically is the focus of those verses - they are not a general independent discussion of God apart from Christ.
He alone is the Saviour, so besides obtaining justification by Him, there is no excuse possible, nor could one be offered,
so therefore, those verses could only be speaking of Christ.
Look, I'd really rather not have to go through each of those verses, so hopefully it will suffice to say that
when taken in context, they are about Christ, even though at first blush they may seem not to be - I know that they are
not easily deciphered.
They are set-off with the following verse. It lays the foundation and the borders for the subsequent verses, and which verse they
tie back into. I believe they should be understood within the context of Christ as Saviour as Paul so tells us in verse 15.
[Rom 1:15 KJV] 15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
Yes - I believe that.
I think that all of those who are made part of spiritual Israel, by definition, before becoming part of spiritual Israel, worshipped idols and false gods - Jew and Gentile alike. "There are none righteous, no not one". It is only by spiritual rebirth that eyes become opened.
Absolutely agree.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
I think that all of those who are made part of spiritual Israel, by definition, before becoming part of spiritual Israel, worshipped idols and false gods - Jew and Gentile alike. "There are none righteous, no not one". It is only by spiritual rebirth that eyes become opened.
Absolutely agree.
[Gal 6:15-16 KJV]
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
Rom 1:18 ff is actually about the reprobate, the vessels of wrath being fitted for destruction and they are worthy of it, and so are the elect vessels of mercy by nature.
Notice Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Now only the vessels of wrath are under Gods wrath Rom 9:22
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And by nature they actively make them selves worthy of damnation and destruction Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
We by nature are so depraved and dead to God, that natures revelation of God does us no good, being dead, and only effects more and more wickedness. even though Rom 1:18-32 describes the reprobate, it also describes all men by nature, but God has mercy on the vessels of mercy and saves them from that lost depraved condition.
Notice Rom 1:18
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Now only the vessels of wrath are under Gods wrath Rom 9:22
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And by nature they actively make them selves worthy of damnation and destruction Rom 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
We by nature are so depraved and dead to God, that natures revelation of God does us no good, being dead, and only effects more and more wickedness. even though Rom 1:18-32 describes the reprobate, it also describes all men by nature, but God has mercy on the vessels of mercy and saves them from that lost depraved condition.
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Way to contradict what Scripture says right there in what you quoted from it.
If God was not made evident in creation as you claim against the very words of Scripture, they would have an excuse. But they do not.
Psalm 19:1
If God was not made evident in creation as you claim against the very words of Scripture, they would have an excuse. But they do not.
Psalm 19:1
Magenta, I can't remember if I conveyed by thoughts on Rom 1, or not, but my belief of that chapter has reference to the born again children of God who have turned away from God in their disobedience. I believe that they still have their eternal inheritance, but are out of fellowship with God, until they repent.
You seem confused. Much more so than most. Please get out of that cult and perhaps your head will begin to clear.
Men will perish because of rebellion and pride, not innocence. As @Magenta has stated, all are without excuse and are responsible for what they do with Jesus. The call has gone out to all. All have been bidden to the supper.
Men will perish because of rebellion and pride, not innocence. As @Magenta has stated, all are without excuse and are responsible for what they do with Jesus. The call has gone out to all. All have been bidden to the supper.