Two main issues

wattie · Mar 24, 2023

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

There are two main issues that mess with salvation that are popular at the moment.

One is Lordship salvation. This is where salvation depends on you lessening sin in your life before you can be saved or means that if you are saved, you WILL be continuously faithful after salvation.

It's 'back loading' works into salvation and is quite subtle.. but messes with the Holy Spirit's power to convict and save an individual aside from any effort on their part.

In lordship salvation, many still get saved anyway, because it usually has believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved anyway. But it can lead to false conversion.

The other main problem is baptismal regeneration which has no salvic capability, yet is getting more popular.

Water baptism is a response to having already been saved ... as a picture of salvation, not the vehicle of salvation.

The vehicle is God.. Jesus the Messiah, who by believing in Him, anyone has eternal life. Not by water baptism, not by reducing sin in your life and then you are saved.

Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone .. not your effort, not because you reduced sin. It's not from you.. it's all from His sacrifice and deliverance. Full stop .

What happens after being saved is to build a close relationship with Him and build rewards I heaven.... Not to get into heaven.

“Jesus gets you into heaven, Him alone”

does this mean we get to ignore what Jesus said about salvation and be saved too ?

GRACE_ambassador · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

Mostly agree; I believe the Relationship He Establishes, is Different from
our 'fellowship' with Him - ie:

The Salvation of no works + the deliverance of works + Final
salvation/deliverance with The Gospel Of The Grace Of God:

(Note: RDF = Rightly Divided From)

The Three Tenses Of God's Eternal Salvation:

"But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should
not trust in ourselves, but in God Which raiseth the dead: Who
Delivered us from So Great A Death,..."
(RDF)

"...and Doth Deliver:..."
(RDF)

"...in Whom we trust that He Will Yet Deliver us;"
(2 Corinthians 1:9-10)
----------------------------
E-X-P-A-N-D-E-D version:

Precious friend(s), Is not the Solution to Confusion recog-
nizing These Three, And Also, God's Differences Between
"His Relationship With us," And (RDF) "our fellowship with Him!"?

God's Will, Today, Under His Pure Grace? Very Simply:

► "Grace Through faith" ( 100% trust/belief with the heart! ) ◄
1) Past Tense = "...God Delivered us from So Great A Death...":

God Establishes HIS Eternal Relationship With
those [ sinners ] who humbly repent and:

believe, 100% trust, place Total faith, In The LORD Jesus Christ,
HIS Death ( Precious BLOOD ), Burial, And HIS Resurrection,
According To The Scriptures!
(1 Corinthians 15:3-4; cp Ephesians 2:8-9; Romans 3-5)

"Grace Through faith" In The Merits
Of HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD Results:

All sins Forgiven, His Eternal Life, And, Peace With God!
(Ephesians 1:7; Colossians 2:13; Romans 6:23; Romans 5:1)

This Is Eternal Deliverance From the Penalty of sin,
The So Great A [Second ] Death! (Revelation 21:8) =
Justification and Spiritual Sanctification
(2 Corinthians 1:10a cp Romans 3:24)

( More Biblical Confirmation is here: God's ETERNAL Assurance!
And here:

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In Christ! )

► faith ◄
God's Eternal Justification/Relationship Is First, And, Then:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

►► love ◄◄
(2) Present Tense = "...God Doth Deliver us...":

All believers Should do "good works" { Which will Never Equal
Christ's Payment For the above Penalty of sin! }, for Which we Are
Created In Christ Jesus, to perform for Him, having "been Called
into fellowship With Him!" (Ephesians 2:10; 1 Corinthians 1:9)

Amen?:

We "work out our own salvation" (Philippians 2:12). This Should Be a
lifetime of Daily submission, and renewing, being "not conformed to
this world" (Romans 12:1-2), for Grace Deliverance From the power of sin!
(2 Corinthians 1:10b) = personal sanctification:

(2a) Christ Living In us, To Fulfil:

All Of His Law, In "One Word: Love thy neighbor as thyself!"

(Galatians 5:14; Romans 13:8-10)

(2b) His Spirit Guiding and Teaching us, How To:

"Study to show thyself Approved Unto God, a work-man

that needeth not to be ashamed, Rightly

Dividing The Word Of Truth!" (2 Timothy 2:15)

Eternal Results: reward [ good works Required! ] * or loss [ bad works! ]
(1 Corinthians 3:8-15), ruling and reigning [ or not * ] With Christ, Which
Will Finally Be At The Judgment Day!

* More study: Finishing The Race

►► love ◄◄:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

►►► Blessed Hope! ◄◄◄
(3) Future Tense = "...God Will Yet Deliver us":

Christ's Glorification of All "members" Of His Body!!
{ This Is Eternal Deliverance From the Presence of sin! }
(1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-57;
2 Corinthians 1:10c). Hallelujah! Praise His Excellent Name!!

----------------------------------

Conclusion:

BIG Differences Between the Three tenses Of God's Eternal Salvation,
And Between God's Relationship And (RDF) our fellowship! Correct?

Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD Jesus Christ, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)...

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

Well what I mean is we believe on the Lord Jesus for salvation. This belief isn't though reducing sin in your life and then you get saved. It's believing He is God, died and rose again, lived sinless. That by believing in Him you have eternal life.

John 3:16, 5:24, Romans 10:9-10. Etc

Turning from sin to Jesus at salvation isn't a work.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

yeah I’m not really sure what your saying to be honest are you saying this is true and good relevant advice by an apostle of Jesus that we should heed ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬ ‭

Is that true and is that good relevant advice to Christian believers ?

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is do we need to believe what Jesus said about life and death salvstion forgiveness of sin ? Our behavior ? Our eternal judgement ? Or are you saying only believe the pet about Jesus dying and being raised to life for us ?

Do we need to believe and act in faith ? Like for instance is this true and applicable to a believer in Jesus and does it create a behavior for us to walk in ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If your saying yes of course we have to forgive but that shouldn’t be labeled a work then I agree , if your saying no we do t have to forgive others we’re saved either way because Jesus died and so we don’t have to do what he said we have to do , Then I don’t agree

Im not clear on what you’re saying doesn’t this if we’re a believer that hears it create a work of faith we need to now walk in because we’ve said I believe ?

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So what if I have an issue holding grudges and don’t like to forgive others ? Am I saved if I don’t work on that issue and start forgiving others ? And also forgiving someone can be the hardest work we do honestly sometimes if the hurt is bad . What I’m getting at brother is we should trust Jesus in all ways for salvstion even what he said about it like forgivness we aren’t saved if we aren’t forgiven but do we believe in Jesus enough to trust what he said about forgivness and repent and start making sure we forgive others always ?

believers hear and believe the gospel part of the gospel are the teachings and truths of Christ and his word

ResidentAlien · Mar 25, 2023

People are way too hung up on whether baptism is necessary for salvation. What we know for sure is it's necessary if we want to be obedient to the Lord and to God's word. Let's start there. While we sit around debating whether baptism is necessary for salvation, more and more people are simply ignoring baptism altogether.

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

Pilgrimshope said:

yeah I’m not really sure what your saying to be honest are you saying this is true and good relevant advice by an apostle of Jesus that we should heed ?

“Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Do all things without murmurings and disputings:”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭2:12-14‬ ‭

Is that true and is that good relevant advice to Christian believers ?

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

What I’m saying is do we need to believe what Jesus said about life and death salvstion forgiveness of sin ? Our behavior ? Our eternal judgement ? Or are you saying only believe the pet about Jesus dying and being raised to life for us ?

Do we need to believe and act in faith ? Like for instance is this true and applicable to a believer in Jesus and does it create a behavior for us to walk in ?

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If your saying yes of course we have to forgive but that shouldn’t be labeled a work then I agree , if your saying no we do t have to forgive others we’re saved either way because Jesus died and so we don’t have to do what he said we have to do , Then I don’t agree

Im not clear on what you’re saying doesn’t this if we’re a believer that hears it create a work of faith we need to now walk in because we’ve said I believe ?

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So what if I have an issue holding grudges and don’t like to forgive others ? Am I saved if I don’t work on that issue and start forgiving others ? And also forgiving someone can be the hardest work we do honestly sometimes if the hurt is bad . What I’m getting at brother is we should trust Jesus in all ways for salvstion even what he said about it like forgivness we aren’t saved if we aren’t forgiven but do we believe in Jesus enough to trust what he said about forgivness and repent and start making sure we forgive others always ?

believers hear and believe the gospel part of the gospel are the teachings and truths of Christ and his word

Thanks for the reply. I'm saying all the good things we do like water baptism, forgiving others, read your bible etc...

Have no salvation in them. They are for closeness with Jesus but don't get someone saved.

They are daily service things . Not 'belief on the Lord Jesus' for salvation.

All the good we do for Jesus is a right response to being saved.. but not how we get saved.

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

ResidentAlien said:

More believers should be baptized. It's true we have slacked off in getting new believers immersed.

But it's vitally important to get salvation right. It's got to be all Jesus' doing and not by self effort. It has to be, because a lost person is always lost until they believe. Any works done before conversion are putting perfume on a corpse.

ResidentAlien · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

Honestly have never heard of this. Can you give an example of groups or preachers who teach it?

Nehemiah6 · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

I believe you are misunderstanding Lordship salvation. All it means is that when a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he receives Him as BOTH Lord and Savior. "Lord" means supreme authority in his life. It means obedience to Christ regardless of the consequences. And notice the word "Lord" in this passage (Rom 10:9-13):

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Does Paul say "Jesus" or does he say "Lord"? And is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? And is there a very good reason why he says "Lord" THREE TIMES in five verses? Absolutely. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor 12:3)

Too many preachers and Christians forget that Jesus of Nazareth is now "The LORD Jesus Christ", and that is because He established His lordship over sin, death, Satan, Hades, and Hell in His death, burial, and resurrection. He is no longer "the Messiah" as many insist on calling Him. The Jews rejected their Messiah but God has made Him BOTH Lord and Christ. See Acts chapter 2 for the full exposition.

HeIsHere · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

This is the doctrine and there are plenty of quotes in books by high profile preachers who promote this.
It is an issue.

“Salvation isn’t the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it’s the fruit of actions, not intentions. There’s no room for passive spectators: words without actions are empty and futile… The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny.”

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

Nehemiah6 said:

I believe you are misunderstanding Lordship salvation. All it means is that when a sinner repents and believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, he receives Him as BOTH Lord and Savior. "Lord" means supreme authority in his life. It means obedience to Christ regardless of the consequences. And notice the word "Lord" in this passage (Rom 10:9-13):

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Does Paul say "Jesus" or does he say "Lord"? And is Paul writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? And is there a very good reason why he says "Lord" THREE TIMES in five verses? Absolutely. Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor 12:3)

Too many preachers and Christians forget that Jesus of Nazareth is now "The LORD Jesus Christ", and that is because He established His lordship over sin, death, Satan, Hades, and Hell in His death, burial, and resurrection. He is no longer "the Messiah" as many insist on calling Him. The Jews rejected their Messiah but God has made Him BOTH Lord and Christ. See Acts chapter 2 for the full exposition.

the way you explain it here is fine. But if Lord.. means 'I am reducing sin in my life and now Jesus can save me'... i.e. making Jesus Lord over every area of of your life.. before you can be saved.. then that's works for salvation.

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

ResidentAlien said:

John Mcarthur.. Ray Comfort..

It's making the effort of turning from sin.. reducing sin in your life as part of receiving eternal life. That is works.

ResidentAlien · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

Oh brother, another "if you make the effort to pray you're working for salvation" bit of nonsense.

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

ResidentAlien said:

No.. a prayer will certainly save. Responding to Jesus out of conviction on your heart. The sinner's prayer is legit. Romans 10:9-10 shows that.

But promising to Jesus that you are going to turn from your sin by reducing it and then you get saved.. that is works.

ResidentAlien · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

I've never heard any such thing. You say Macarthur and Comfort teach it but honestly it sounds made up to me. If you'd like to post some examples maybe I'll change my mind.

wattie · Mar 25, 2023

ResidentAlien said:

Okay.. well these are the likes that will decry the sinners prayer because the person that prayed isn't exhibiting good works. So they are saying good works are part of salvation.

The 4 Spiritual laws booklet does this from Campus crusade.. even tho they have the sinners prayer. It's the 'I now turn from my sin (trusting self) and commit my life to you (trusting in the commited life from themselves) ..

So .. if after salvation they struggle to commit.. have difficulty with sin...

Then the 'never saved in the first place' line comes out against them.

When they should be assured of salvation.. so then they are broken from the chains of sin.

Blade · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

Amen He made it simple. You can see where some are still stuck. Those "good works or righteous works" which ever they take it and try to apply it to salvation. So its you self that has to do something to keep it. Then if you don't ..there ya go you were never saved. Salvation as I understand it is not based on if I sin or not. That was already taken care of on the cross. He said He is the way He is the truth he is the life and no one comes to the Father buy by Him.

We need to get over this only the groups we like and believe are the true Christians. Take Macarthur and Word of Faith. Both are right yet both are wrong. You do know everyone here is not right and you are off missing it in some area. Its why "some" will say "this is what I believe and why" they are wise they know they could have missed it some where. I can listen to both Word of Faith and John Mac and yeah I don't have run and jump to FALSE TEACHERS because they preach something I disagree with. Who do we think GOD uses?

Gods works were what? He called those things that be not as though they were. Never once had to hope wonder guess it was faith. If you had the faith of a mustered seed you tell that mtn to be moved it has to move. GOD didn't say it had to obey Him He GOD said it had to obey YOU! That's huge in its self. Once you spoke it that faith was the substance of things hopped for its the evidence of things not seen. As far as your concerned that MTN was moved already and you never ever have to doubt. He said what ever you desire when you pray believe you have it...wait....you are to believe you already received it though you cant see it yet you know you have it. Hello works. Were not talking good works or righteous works. Its called faith with out works is dead.

Its written if you know He hears you then you know you have the petitions/prayers you asked for. Its called meat and I never had to touch SIN. Get over it your never going to be in this fallen world sinless. Your flesh like mine like Pauls loves to sin and you like Paul like me what you want to do you don't do and what you should not do you do. The meat is "its no longer I that sin but sin that is in me". That me is your natural man. You were born from above born again. That new man never ever wants to sin. Since were not slaves when we miss it we confess it and move on. Get up dust off keep going. Don't focus on sin..leave it with Him its why He came and died. We can not handle it we need Him. We will never stop sinning if we try to stop. We must lean on Him.

Gods will when you pray is HIS WORD! You pray His word.. faith works hello? Feel free to disagree but like its written I can say I have faith and works hello fruits. It will always be a out faith

ResidentAlien · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

Bro, I have no comment. You're making some pretty strong claims without any substantial documentation. I really don't understand what your concern is so until I do I should probably just bow out.

Pilgrimshope · Mar 25, 2023

wattie said:

“Thanks for the reply. I'm saying all the good things we do like water baptism, forgiving others”

So you are saying even though Jesus says forgiving others or not forgiving others means you will be or won’t be forgiven your position is that’s not relevant to salvation ?

and even though Jesus says this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You’re saying this also has no saving value ? Having our sins remitted and receiving the Holy Ghost ? Is that related to this salvation you’re talking about ?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

you see no difference in the ones who heard what Peter was saying and got baptized ? And those who didn’t ?

It’s like saying Noah didn’t need to do what God said to do to be saved by faith or like Abraham didn’t need to go where god said to go to be blessed or like saying israel didn’t need to obey the law to keep their inheritance secure

christians aren’t those who now don’t need to do anything , they are those who hear and learn from Jesus what to do and they believe and follow beginning to apply those things to life

whether the chicken or egg comes first is irrelevant Christian’s are actually taught once you believe to now understand you have to change your ways also not given a free pass to continue in sin but given a road map out of sin

the answer isn’t “ now we don’t have anything to do “ it’s now we can understand what gods saying will save our souls believe him and be saved

Two main issues

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