Where was Jesus for the three days between his death and resurrection?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
#41
Tell the rich man that hell is not occupied.
You are continuing to hold on to the mistaken idea that the rich man was in Hell (the Lake of Fire). I already explained to you who all were in Hades (a completely different region). That would have included the rich man. The KJV should never have used "hell" for "Hades".
Here is the Greek text for Luke 16:23: καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ* ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ, ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις, ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν, καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.

*Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

plus, man’s soul is at stake not the spirit. Fallen angels have no soul, just spirits.
Men have both souls and spirits. But God focuses on spirits. Hence "the spirits of just men made perfect".
 
L

Locoponydirtman

Guest
#42
Why quibble over symantics, Hell, hades, sheol, ... in the end it will be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
#43
CV5, what I'm asking for is an exegesis; a breakdown verse-by-verse of the entire passage, defining how you interpret every word in every phrase. It's rarely something I get, however, so maybe I shouldn't even be asking, but in order to evaluate whether an interpretation holds water or not, the entire thing has to be analyzed in its context, and for us to do that, it would take you presenting yours and seeing if it holds up to critique in context. That's why I was asking for your exegesis of 1 Peter 3:17-22.
More commentary on the matter.....

Isa 24:21
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

Isa 24:22
And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
 

Artios1

Born again to serve
Dec 11, 2020
678
420
63
#44
You are calling a revelation from Christ a fallacy?
Abrahams bosom Luke 16:19-31

The fallacy is just the things people make up such as → “The righteous who had died before him that were in Abraham’s bosom”.

Where does that come from …it comes from religion which has attributed many absurd things to Abraham’s bosom.

But despite what some commentators state… this is a parable for a couple specific reasons.

Verse 19 of Luke starts out “There was a certain rich man” Now take a look at Luke chapter 16:1. “There was a certain rich man”…. Starting midway through chapter 14 and ending in chapter 16 verse 31 Jesus is…. teaching by way of parables…..

I know some say it can’t be a parable due to personal names being used which are not used in other parables.
But the end result of that is…. people attach meanings and embellish this section with their religious belief. Beliefs that contradict several scriptures in a few different categories and they ignore contradictions in favor of their beliefs which are built upon Babylonian mythology and have been adopted into religious denominations.

Understanding this as a parable… Which is a comparison by sustained resemblance; an extended simile whose likeness or resemblance must be sought from the entire context. They generally express an abstract argument by means of using a concrete narrative…That is why Jesus taught this to the Pharisees in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs..... It is the Pharisees who believed in rewards and punishment immediately after death….not Jesus

This (parable) is addressed to the Pharisees (verse 14) . And it was from their beliefs that is coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom” as one of several afterlife locations..... Jesus uses the parable to condemn the Pharisees and catch them in their own erroneous belief.

His intention was not to contradict the entire Old Testament by teaching survival after death. His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they still wouldn’t listen to him….. Just the opposite appears in Jesus teachings when we look at verses such as


John_ 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke_ 14:14. And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

And Jesus could not have denied the abundance of scripture from the Old Testament like that of Ecclesiastes_ 9:5, 6, &10

5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

And Jesus concludes this parable with Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How prophetic it was, as evidenced by his own resurrection from the dead, many of the Pharisees did not believe.

((I understand this somewhat illuminates the question of “are the dead alive now” which is a whole different topic for a different time ….but the Word declares Abraham is dead Heb 11:13 These all died in faith … ff))


Also you yourself have presented a fallacy with this statement: He did not show himself to the imprisoned spirits until after he was raised.
The reference for my statement is from the Word …. How is that fallacy?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
 

Artios1

Born again to serve
Dec 11, 2020
678
420
63
#45
No reason to doubt that it was a real place. It appears that Jesus went there to tell the OT saints the good news that the plan of salvation was now complete. I also believe that He transported their spirits to a new home in Heaven.
Not that you will agree but please see Post 44
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
#46
Abrahams bosom Luke 16:19-31

The fallacy is just the things people make up such as → “The righteous who had died before him that were in Abraham’s bosom”.

Where does that come from …it comes from religion which has attributed many absurd things to Abraham’s bosom.

But despite what some commentators state… this is a parable for a couple specific reasons.

Verse 19 of Luke starts out “There was a certain rich man” Now take a look at Luke chapter 16:1. “There was a certain rich man”…. Starting midway through chapter 14 and ending in chapter 16 verse 31 Jesus is…. teaching by way of parables…..

I know some say it can’t be a parable due to personal names being used which are not used in other parables.
But the end result of that is…. people attach meanings and embellish this section with their religious belief. Beliefs that contradict several scriptures in a few different categories and they ignore contradictions in favor of their beliefs which are built upon Babylonian mythology and have been adopted into religious denominations.

Understanding this as a parable… Which is a comparison by sustained resemblance; an extended simile whose likeness or resemblance must be sought from the entire context. They generally express an abstract argument by means of using a concrete narrative…That is why Jesus taught this to the Pharisees in light of their Talmudic traditions and beliefs..... It is the Pharisees who believed in rewards and punishment immediately after death….not Jesus

This (parable) is addressed to the Pharisees (verse 14) . And it was from their beliefs that is coined the phrase “Abraham’s Bosom” as one of several afterlife locations..... Jesus uses the parable to condemn the Pharisees and catch them in their own erroneous belief.

His intention was not to contradict the entire Old Testament by teaching survival after death. His primary intention was to show that the Pharisees were so evil that even if someone rose from the dead they still wouldn’t listen to him….. Just the opposite appears in Jesus teachings when we look at verses such as


John_ 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Luke_ 14:14. And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just.

And Jesus could not have denied the abundance of scripture from the Old Testament like that of Ecclesiastes_ 9:5, 6, &10

5: For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6: Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

10: Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

And Jesus concludes this parable with Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

How prophetic it was, as evidenced by his own resurrection from the dead, many of the Pharisees did not believe.

((I understand this somewhat illuminates the question of “are the dead alive now” which is a whole different topic for a different time ….but the Word declares Abraham is dead Heb 11:13 These all died in faith … ff))




The reference for my statement is from the Word …. How is that fallacy?

1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
I agree, considering the dead are conscious of nothing, this is a parable Jesus used to teach that "if" there were a conversation between the lost and the saved and anyone that you'd even think might've had power to send the dead back, how it would go and what the answer would be. Especially considering that Jesus does have the keys to life and death, and IS The resurrection, He'd know the answer to that question. Abraham has no such power.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,162
3,699
113
#47
You are continuing to hold on to the mistaken idea that the rich man was in Hell (the Lake of Fire). I already explained to you who all were in Hades (a completely different region). That would have included the rich man. The KJV should never have used "hell" for "Hades".
Here is the Greek text for Luke 16:23: καὶ ἐν τῷ ᾅδῃ* ἐπάρας τοὺς ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτοῦ, ὑπάρχων ἐν βασάνοις, ὁρᾷ τὸν Ἀβραὰμ ἀπὸ μακρόθεν, καὶ Λάζαρον ἐν τοῖς κόλποις αὐτοῦ.

*Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Definition: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Usage: Hades, the unseen world.

Men have both souls and spirits. But God focuses on spirits. Hence "the spirits of just men made perfect".
The KJV makes it clear, hell and the lake of fire are two separate places. The rich man was in torment in flames, the fire of hell. Hell will be cast into the lake of fire. All those in hell are in permanent torture as they will be cast into the lake of fire to continue their torture. Both hell and Abraham's bosom was located in the heart of the earth separated by a great gulf. The KJV will never stir you wrong my brother.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,894
1,084
113
Oregon
#48
.
The Word states Jesus died and was in the heart of the earth for 3 days and
3 nights (72 hours)

The preponderance of evidence indicates Jesus' crucified dead body was
restored to life during the third day rather than after the third day was all
over and done with .

Matt 17:22-23 . . Jesus said unto them: The Son of man shall be betrayed
into the hands of men: and they shall kill him, and the third day he shall be
raised again.

Matt 20:18-19 . . Behold, we go up to Jerusalem; and the Son of man shall
be betrayed unto the chief priests and unto the scribes, and they shall
condemn him to death, and shall deliver him to the Gentiles to mock, and to
scourge, and to crucify him: and the third day he shall rise again.

Mark 9:31 . . He taught his disciples, and said unto them: The Son of man
is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he
is killed, he shall rise the third day.

Luke 9:22 . .The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by
the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and
on the third day be raised to life.

Luke 18:33 . . He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him,
insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise
again.

Luke 24:5-8 . . In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to
the ground, but the men said to them: Why do you look for the living among
the dead? He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he
was still with you in Galilee: "The Son of Man must be delivered into the
hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again."

Luke 24:21-23 . .We trusted that it had been he which should have
redeemed Israel: and beside all this, today is the third day since these
things were done. Yea, and certain women also of our company made us
astonished, which were early at the sepulcher; and when they found not his
body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which
said that he was alive.

Luke 24:46 . . He said unto them: Thus it is written, and thus it behooved
Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day

. John 2:19 . . Jesus answered and said to them: Destroy this temple, and in
three days I will raise it up.

Acts 10:40 . . God raised him up the third day

1Cor 15:4 . . he rose again the third day

NOTE: There is some controversy regarding Matt 27:63 and Mark 8:31 due
to the word "after".

To begin with, those verses are outnumbered 11 to 2.

Plus; the Greek word translated "after" is somewhat ambiguous. It can
indicate moments following the conclusion of an event, but it can also
indicate moments within an event. I suggest letting the 11 to 2 majority
decide how best to interpret the intent of Matt 27:63 and Mark 8:31.
_
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,894
1,084
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#49
.
Matt 12:40 . . For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the earth.

When you think about it: Jesus' remains weren't laid to rest in the heart of
the Earth; in point of fact they were laid to rest up on the surface; and not
even in the Earth's soil but above the Earth's soil in a rock-hewn tomb.

So; in order for Jesus to be up on the surface of the Earth while
simultaneously in its heart; the man and his body had to part company and
go their separate ways.

At some time during his nautical adventure; Jonah went to a place called
sheol (Jonah 2:2) which he located at the bottoms of the mountains. (Jonah
2:6a) Well the bottoms of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a
fish, nor under the sea, rather, they're located deep underground.

So; in order for Jonah to be in the tummy of a fish, while simultaneously
deep underground, the man and his body had to part company and go their
separate ways. In other words; at some point during the prophet's odyssey,
Jonah was quite dead. (Jonah 2:6b)
_
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,951
13,615
113
#51
If you believe that "the dead know nothing" and don't believe in spiritualism, the answer is easy.
Jesus was dead.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

did God give a spirit of non-existence and death to all men?
and this non-existent spirit of death, how is it that it returns to Him yet doesn't exist?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
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#52
the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.
(Ecclesiastes 12:7)

did God give a spirit of non-existence and death to all men?
and this non-existent spirit of death, how is it that it returns to Him yet doesn't exist?
Well stated, that the spirit returns to Him does not mean that said spirit is not still separate from Him.

Perhaps the spirit returns for judgement?
 
Dec 21, 2020
1,825
474
83
#53
IMO, one of the big lies that have become Christian "orthodoxy" is that death doesn't mean death.

When you die, you aren't really dead. You continue to live because your spirit/soul is "immortal."

Nawp, I don't buy it, I do not believe the Bible teaches it. If when a Christian dies he goes to be with Jesus in heaven, why is death called an enemy that has yet to be destroyed? (1 Cor 15:26)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
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#54
The KJV will never stir you wrong my brother.
The translators certainly did a great disservice by using "hell", "the grave" and "the pit" for Sheol/Hades. I am committed 100% to the KJV but there are definitely improvements which are needed. For example they failed to capitalize "Spirit" with reference to God the Holy Spirit many times, and they also failed to capitalize "Word" with reference to Christ many times.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,894
1,084
113
Oregon
#55
.
FAQ: Do people in Hell have immortality?

REPLY: No; when people pass on, they leave their bodies behind.

FAQ: Do people in Hell have eternal life?

REPLY: No; eternal life is a gift from God to folks who've bought into the
gospel.

FAQ: If so that people in Hell have neither immortality nor eternal life, then
how can it be possible their conscious suffering is perpetual?

REPLY: The afterlife is something about which I know very little.

However, it's readily seen from Isaiah 14:4-20 and Luke 16:19-31 that folks
on the other side are conscious, sentient, and recognizable; plus, they
exhibit human characteristics, e.g. Abraham has a bosom, Lazarus has a
finger, and the rich man has a tongue. From all appearances, people over
there appear fully human. Exactly how that is, I don't really know. That
world over there is obviously very different than the world with which I am
familiar over here.
_
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
2,118
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#56
More commentary on the matter.....
Isa 24:21
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.
Isa 24:22
And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
All of the above is yet future.

[Armageddon and the time-frame following that, to the GWTj point in time]





Consider also this verse (slightly different subject): "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." - Ps30:3
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#57
^ [quoting from BibleHub, under the heading "Brown-Driver-Briggs Lexicon"]

"5. (in poetry & late; never with article) pit of the grave Proverbs 28:17; so אַבְנֵי ב׳ stones of the pit Isaiah 14:19 (of sepulchre, walled with stones) & of She’ôl Psalm 30:4 (|| שׁאול);"

[refers to Ps30:3 not 30:4 ^ ]

-- H953 - bôr - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org) ["pit"]






But yes, there is a separation of TIME between the TWO "PUNISH" words in Isaiah 24:21-22[,23]: that is, between Armageddon at Christ's Second Coming to the earth point in time, and the LATER GWTj point in time
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,137
30,281
113
#58
The translators certainly did a great disservice by using "hell", "the grave" and "the pit" for Sheol/Hades. I am committed 100% to the KJV but there are definitely improvements which are needed. For example they failed to capitalize "Spirit" with reference to God the Holy Spirit many times, and they also failed to capitalize "Word" with reference to Christ many times.
Does the KJV ever capitalize He or Him in relation to God, Jesus, or Holy spirit? I doubt it.

So that is far and away more than a few improvements needed.

Plus KJV mostly says Holy Ghost.
 

HopeinHim98

Well-known member
Mar 16, 2023
529
417
63
#59
If you believe that "the dead know nothing" and don't believe in spiritualism, the answer is easy.
Jesus was dead.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
I have thought about that verse but I think you have to consider that it is in Ecclesiastes, a book of poetry, and look at the context. When I look at the many of the other passages that deal with the state of the dead I can't come away with soul sleep if I honestly look at them.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
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#60
All of the above is yet future.

[Armageddon and the time-frame following that, to the GWTj point in time]





Consider also this verse (slightly different subject): "O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit." - Ps30:3
My point is that there was a past event where God executed a similar judgement upon the fallen angels of old in the days of Noah.
This latter judgement is the mopping-up effort as regards the fallen spirits.