Gay Christian?

[CS1]

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb,

You know I have the utmost respect for you, so I'm not saying this to argue at all -- it's just something I've always pondered, growing up in the church.

I am not in any way saying that homosexuality is justified -- not at all. As Christians, we all know homosexuality is wrong. But I know what I've grown up seeing is a lot of straight, married Christians condemning others who are "obviously" sinning -- openly gay, straight and living together, etc. But the thing I've always wondered, and I think this might be part of what @lonelysummer is getting at, is if straight, married Christians have a right to judge the sexual sins of others, who has the right to stand up to THEM about their own sexual sins?

I have known at least two Christian women who tearfully told me that their husbands preferred oral and anal sex to what we would call normal sex. And since they only preferred women, they considered themselves 100% straight and not doing anything wrong -- all while freely condemning homosexuals and others in outward sexual sin.:

This is another false narrative that you have said which is nothing new and has been addressed in many other threads even this one.

Homosexuality is a political movement that is no longer about two consenting adults in a relationship who say they love each other. it is now the LGBTQ that is actively seeking to have sex with children and see it thought in public schools to also remove Parental right from Parents and want genital mutilation of those under the age of 18.

This has long moved from two consenting adults of the same sex in a relationship. And you are trying to justify Homosexuality by pointing out a wrong done to women in a marriage to a man. I question your integrity to speak about those things THESE WOMEN YOU SAY TOLD YOU. I wonder if they know how you are using their pain for your point?


First off, many men are addicted to porn in marriages. It is a pandemic in and out of the church Hell it has been for some time. Many of us ministers fight this every day in some way, shape, or fashion. We can judge the action and not condemn the person.

That is the main issue with those like you who think calling sin is the judgment it is not.
If you are incapable of discerning the times in which we live and do not see the demonic attack on the family as God intended it to be.

Secondly, I was abused in my youth and had issues with porn. Jesus delivered me from all of it. Married 31 years this April. Yet I never bring anything into my marriage or bedroom outside my wife and me. Homosexuals and LGBTQ will never have the peace of God that I have in marriage as God intended it to be.

Tat is the torment of this in this sin as all SIN does.

 

[seoulsearch]

I did not in any way, shape, or form justify homosexuality in my post.

And if I did, I invite someone to please report me to the mods for promoting homosexuality, because that goes against the fundamental Christian beliefs that are the basis for this forum.

And if you read my post again, you will see that I said that I believe sodomy is wrong in ANY case, no matter who it involves.

What I did say, is that yes, sexual sin in ALL forms, both homosexual AND straight, must be confronted and dealt with.

My pondering is this: many straight, married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sins, and yes, they could be saving these people's souls.

I repeat: Homosexuality is wrong and it is sin -- no question about it. And it must be confronted.

BUT, so do the sexual sins of married Christians -- so who is going to confront them? After all, it might very well be saving their souls, too.

My point is, one groups sins cannot be ignored while another is openly condemned, because BOTH groups must have their sins adequately confronted and dealt with.

I realize my posts will probably be met with a lot of red X's and I debated on not saying anything at all. But I do feel I posted for a reason, and all I can do is continue to pray.

Again, if you see me as promoting homosexuality, report me to the mods and I will accept my correction and/or banning.

 

[Moses_Young]

I did not in any way, shape, or form justify homosexuality in my post.

I didn't see anything in your posts promoting sodomy.

And I fully agree with what you say. I find it infuriating when Christians will pick on a cultural unacceptable sin, but ignore the sins in their own lives because they're culturally acceptable.

I've known Christians who struggled with pornography. But while I don't know all the details of their lives, I do know that in a few cases, the wives have been quite obnoxious people. Not in looks - but in personality. Always wanting to compete with, rather than support, their husbands, always being selfish and denigrating them (and others) - always obsessed with shallow, petty things and never considering what is more important. I've often wondered if it was the wives' selfishness that drove the husbands for satisfaction elsewhere. I'm not justifying the husbands' sins, but I do believe one sin leads to another, and while church-goers were happy to condemn the obvious sin in the husbands, perhaps they should have also focused on the open selfishness and shallowness of the wives. If they'd done this in the first place, maybe the other sins would not even have followed.

This said, I also believe sodomy is a more depraved sin. I believe some sexual sins are from our sinful nature (like adultery/fornication/lustfulness etc.), but I think homosexuality is unnatural. In some, I think this occurs because the homosexuals were abused by other homosexuals in childhood. For others, it might be more of a spiritual thing (dealing with the demonic and witchcraft). I definitely also think the poisons in our environment and food are contributing to the homosexual pandemic (by suppressing/overriding natural attraction for opposite and revulsion to the same), not to mention the propaganda that justifies and promotes such behaviour.

 

[HeIsHere]

I did not in any way, shape, or form justify homosexuality in my post.

And if I did, I invite someone to please report me to the mods for promoting homosexuality, because that goes against the fundamental Christian beliefs that are the basis for this forum.

And if you read my post again, you will see that I said that I believe sodomy is wrong in ANY case, no matter who it involves.

What I did say, is that yes, sexual sin in ALL forms, both homosexual AND straight, must be confronted and dealt with.

My pondering is this: many straight, married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sins, and yes, they could be saving these people's souls.

I repeat: Homosexuality is wrong and it is sin -- no question about it. And it must be confronted.

BUT, so do the sexual sins of married Christians -- so who is going to confront them? After all, it might very well be saving their souls, too.

My point is, one groups sins cannot be ignored while another is openly condemned, because BOTH groups must have their sins adequately confronted and dealt with.

I realize my posts will probably be met with a lot of red X's and I debated on not saying anything at all. But I do feel I posted for a reason, and all I can do is continue to pray.

Again, if you see me as promoting homosexuality, report me to the mods and I will accept my correction and/or banning.

Upon rereading your post I see your point.

It is true Christians have used Paul's statement "the marriage bed is undefiled to man" to mean a lot more than what he was addressing.

Women in the church are definitely suffering because of this modern day interpretation along with other factors.

You raise a very valid point, I do not see an easy answer when churches are so large and often impersonal and there are limited resources to help these couples.

Those men need help.

 

[seoulsearch]

I didn't see anything in your posts promoting sodomy.

And I fully agree with what you say. I find it infuriating when Christians will pick on a cultural unacceptable sin, but ignore the sins in their own lives because they're culturally acceptable.

I've known Christians who struggled with pornography. But while I don't know all the details of their lives, I do know that in a few cases, the wives have been quite obnoxious people. Not in looks - but in personality. Always wanting to compete with, rather than support, their husbands, always being selfish and denigrating them (and others) - always obsessed with shallow, petty things and never considering what is more important. I've often wondered if it was the wives' selfishness that drove the husbands for satisfaction elsewhere. I'm not justifying the husbands' sins, but I do believe one sin leads to another, and while church-goers were happy to condemn the obvious sin in the husbands, perhaps they should have also focused on the open selfishness and shallowness of the wives. If they'd done this in the first place, maybe the other sins would not even have followed.

This said, I also believe sodomy is a more depraved sin. I believe some sexual sins are from our sinful nature (like adultery/fornication/lustfulness etc.), but I think homosexuality is unnatural. In some, I think this occurs because the homosexuals were abused by other homosexuals in childhood. For others, it might be more of a spiritual thing (dealing with the demonic and witchcraft). I definitely also think the poisons in our environment and food are contributing to the homosexual pandemic (by suppressing/overriding natural attraction for opposite and revulsion to the same), not to mention the propaganda that justifies and promotes such behaviour.

Upon rereading your post I see your point.

It is true Christians have used Paul's statement "the marriage bed is undefiled to man" to mean a lot more than what he was addressing.

Women in the church are definitely suffering because of this modern day interpretation along with other factors.

You raise a very valid point, I do not see an easy answer when churches are so large and often impersonal and there are limited resources to help these couples.

Those men need help.

Thank you both for being open-minded when taking in what I am trying to say. Moses Young just summed it all up in one sentence, and much more eloquently than me. He has a God-given talent for doing that.

Said another way, we Christians all know that God tells us to remove the planks from our own eyes before going after someone else's specks. Now I'm certainly not trying to reduce sins like homosexuality to specks, because it's definitely a plank of a sin.

But what I see happening is that the church seems to have thrown all its focus on correcting those who sin differently than they do, all while turning their heads, sweeping their own issues behind church doors -- and everyone suffers because of it.

It's kind of like a government trying to give a lot of its manpower and resources to foreign countries -- but its own citizens are suffering from lack and neglect.

One of the reasons I'm single is because I can't find a single Christian guy who isn't into porn. I've put up with it in the past, thinking enough worship, prayer, and church attendance would help the person, but it didn't. so now I'd rather just avoid it if I can. I also want to emphasize that I do know some wonderful Christian guys who are NOT into porn, but for whatever reason, we are just friends.

Is the church as gung-ho about going after its members' porn addictions as it is about confronting homosexuals? Again, this is NOT to justify homosexuality -- this is to say, BOTH are sins, and BOTH need serious correction.

And Moses, I understand what you're saying about women, and I agree with you. Men and women are not being taught, mentored, or led into their proper roles, and it takes a toll on everyone. I'm sure one of the reasons I'm also single is because I'm probably too stuck in my ways, and that's all on me.

I personally feel the church has become unbalanced -- going into full battle mode over the planks of the world, but becoming unable or unwilling to provide for the desperate needs of its own people in the process.

And this is what I'm protesting.

 

[Magenta]

Micah 6:8

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb,

You know I have the utmost respect for you, so I'm not saying this to argue at all -- it's just something I've always pondered, growing up in the church.

Well the respect is more than mutual. And I always appreciate your thoughtful posts. There's a lot here so I'll take it one by one.

I am not in any way saying that homosexuality is justified -- not at all. As Christians, we all know homosexuality is wrong. But I know what I've grown up seeing is a lot of straight, married Christians condemning others who are "obviously" sinning -- openly gay, straight and living together, etc. But the thing I've always wondered, and I think this might be part of what @lonelysummer is getting at, is if straight, married Christians have a right to judge the sexual sins of others, who has the right to stand up to THEM about their own sexual sins?

Well sis, someone said to me once about judging gay people. My response was, God has already judged homosexuality to be a sin, and a serious sin. So I'm not judging that person, I'm saying that what they are doing is sin and they need to be delivered. But that being said I would not walk up to a gay person, call them a sinner and tell them to repent, they would have no idea what I meant and would be offended. It's a matter of discernment and the Holy Spirit, the same way we lead anyone to Christ.

We had a person here that admitted in the forum that admitted to being a homosexual, but celebrate. Several here were pretty nasty to him. As far as I know, no one PMed him. I did. Not patting myself on the back but I felt I wanted to speak to just him. He told me when he came out his mother told him that he might as well kill himself because God would never save him, God had turned His back on him. And we had several conversations and it sobered me as to how I approach people who are gay. That is why I get so upset at hard core Calvinists, there is NO ONE beyond God's reach!!!

I have known at least two Christian women who tearfully told me that their husbands preferred oral and anal sex to what we would call normal sex. And since they only preferred women, they considered themselves 100% straight and not doing anything wrong -- all while freely condemning homosexuals and others in outward sexual sin.

Anything that has to be forced on a partner is wrong. Very few people consider this and discuss it before marriage. And it's something to be raised in counseling before hand. Anything that makes the other person uncomfortable is wrong. I know of a woman who's husband was forcing her to have sex whenever he demanded it, and even when she was asleep. She was being raped. She went before a Christian judge and he didn't consider it rape and sent her back into the situation, her husband beat her senseless. My parents knew the judge personally but could not believe he sent her back into that situation.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

CONTINUED....

But who would be able to step in and correct them? Especially because these women were much too embarrassed to go to their (male) pastor or anyone else. In one case, it was to the point where the husband would just force her, and she was ashamed and terrified to tell anyone. She was sobbing so hard she couldn't talk as she was trying to relate this to me, and I cried right along with her. We both knew, in the churches we were in, she would never be allowed to leave him -- and she certainly wouldn't want to tell anyone why.
What it boiled down to is that these wives were being pressured and/or forced to participate in acts with their husbands that they did not want to do. I realize there would be debate about oral, but I would think Christians would definitely agree that sodomy against anyone, let alone a wife, is wrong.

There is definitely an issue in the churches when it comes to counseling. A pastor and wife team should be counseling, never one alone. But back in the day it was seen as worldly to seek counseling. As a result churches are very poor at it. I know this first hand as my sister has needed help and found none within the church. And I have always been outspoken about it here and actually in the church. I have said straight out that in some instances women in churches are treated with no more respect that Muslim women. I love my pastor but I don't believe if my husband and I had issues either one of us would want to speak to him. We just wouldn't feel comfortable. Again, anything that makes a partner uncomfortable or makes them feel forces is wrong.

I honestly think issues like this are a lot more common than anyone in the church is willing to admit.
.

We would agree there. And about the only thing to change it is speaking up about it.

Likewise, many of the men (including pastors and elders) in the churches I attended confessed to porn addictions, and they weren't having much victory. So they could point out the sins of a homosexual one minute to save that person's soul, while going home and having to hide what they were watching on their computers every night from their wives. How many married Christians are fantasizing about another man or woman during their private time with their spouse?
And won't God judge these things too?
.

Yes, He will! But have we changed the conversation to Christians struggling with homosexuality? Some Christians face those struggles until they are called home. But a Christian struggling is a different conversation than someone who isn't saved. Both are sexual sins and they are the worst to break free from. And I believe if we were all honest with whatever our struggles are and could call some friends and say " I need prayer today" we would see a lot more deliverance.

On the outside, these were respected Christian couples, well-known in their churches and community. But their private lives told a much different story.

Another young man, a new Christian, was trying to get away from the sexual sins of his past, and he asked me (online) if God would be ok with him and his wife experimenting with "toys" as a way to help him satisfy his cravings and get over them.

I told him I was raised in a church that believed this was wrong, but I strongly advised him to talk to his own pastor and study what the Bible says for himself.
.

I would give the same advice. But these things should be openly discussed in a Sunday school class for married couples. But the church still acts like sex is a dirty thing that should not be spoken about in public. I keep asking if anyone has read the Song of Solomon. The church needs to step out of the 50s and start being clear about these issues and how they are going to reach the lost.

I went and saw Jesus Revolution with my husband and parents. I was moved by the move, but when the pastor washed the feet of the youth coming in, I lost it. Somehow the church has to roll up their sleeves and get dirty. They need to stop waiting on people to come in the church door. They need to go and seek the lost and show them God loves them. We use to have meetings at peoples homes, we use to have outreaches in the streets, we use to have youth organizations to help runaway youth. There are a whole lot of lost people looking for an answer that we have but sit on our hands and wait for them to come to us. It's not gonna happen.

I don't want to speak for @lonelysummer, but I think I understand where he's coming from. From the time I was a teen, one of my biggest questions became, "What's the difference between between confronting someone in order to save their soul and confronting a self-proclaimed Christian (because only God knows if they truly are) who is repeatedly guilty of habitual sin?"

And why do the ones with the secret sins get away with pointing their fingers at the ones who's sins are outward? The only difference is, one is observable, and the other is not. It's a lot like a young woman who is pregnant out of wedlock -- much is said to condemn and correct her, but usually not so much about the man who is the other part of the equation. It's just that her sin is much more noticeable.

I was in a church several yrs back when I moved south. Loved the pastor, loved the church. Suddenly the rumors started flying. Before long it couldn't be kept quiet, the pastors son, who was a very talented singer and musician, had been using the church computer to look up gay porn. The reactions ranged but mostly it was pitchfork and tar and feather. I spoke to his son after church and I said that if everyone at that moment had their thoughts and secret sins displayed, they would have nothing to say against him. Was he wrong? Absolutely, but the reactions were so bad that they had to leave town. He was almost of the age to leave home, his parents did not know or condone his behavior, but they were forced to leave. He's on his own now, still in church and running the music. I have no idea if he got help or not.

I can admit I might be a bit jaded though, as I grew up watching people claim to be so close to God that they could apparently somehow point out everyone else's sins without anyone else knowing about, or no one was brave enough, to confront them about their own.

Again, I'm not meaning this as an argument at all. And I'm certainly not trying to defend homosexuality.

But the points that were brought up in these posts are something I think and pray about quite often.

I have said before, if we all got real about our struggles there would be a lot of healing in and out of the church. You know that I had a lot of years in evangelism. So I see it as how do we reach people who are confused about their sex and their gender. The Bible talks about deceiving spirits in the last days, if there ever was a time. smh As the Jesus Revolution said, these kids are looking for the same thing you are, love and acceptance, they are just looking in all the wrong places. It doesn't matter if we can hid our sin, or its out in the open flag flying. God will judge both. But the only difference is our sin/struggle is under the blood, theirs is not. Again we must use discernment and the Holy Spirit to reach the lost, but we must call sin sin. I think we agree on most everything, thanks sister for the discussion.

 

[HeIsHere]

Thank you both for being open-minded when taking in what I am trying to say. Moses Young just summed it all up in one sentence, and much more eloquently than me. He has a God-given talent for doing that.

Said another way, we Christians all know that God tells us to remove the planks from our own eyes before going after someone else's specks. Now I'm certainly not trying to reduce sins like homosexuality to specks, because it's definitely a plank of a sin.

But what I see happening is that the church seems to have thrown all its focus on correcting those who sin differently than they do, all while turning their heads, sweeping their own issues behind church doors -- and everyone suffers because of it.

It's kind of like a government trying to give a lot of its manpower and resources to foreign countries -- but its own citizens are suffering from lack and neglect.

One of the reasons I'm single is because I can't find a single Christian guy who isn't into porn. I've put up with it in the past, thinking enough worship, prayer, and church attendance would help the person, but it didn't. so now I'd rather just avoid it if I can. I also want to emphasize that I do know some wonderful Christian guys who are NOT into porn, but for whatever reason, we are just friends.

Is the church as gung-ho about going after its members' porn addictions as it is about confronting homosexuals? Again, this is NOT to justify homosexuality -- this is to say, BOTH are sins, and BOTH need serious correction.

And Moses, I understand what you're saying about women, and I agree with you. Men and women are not being taught, mentored, or led into their proper roles, and it takes a toll on everyone. I'm sure one of the reasons I'm also single is because I'm probably too stuck in my ways, and that's all on me.

I personally feel the church has become unbalanced -- going into full battle mode over the planks of the world, but becoming unable or unwilling to provide for the desperate needs of its own people in the process.

And this is what I'm protesting.

Completely agree.

" I can't find a single Christian guy who isn't into porn. "

A sad state of affairs indeed.

Definitely do not want a man who cannot recognize how this is harmful to himself and any potential mate.

I do not believe for a minute that Christ Jesus cannot set a person free from this addiction, many are not born again so they do not have access to His grace or they are not being properly discipled, trying to conquer sin by the power of their flesh, often they give in and say its not that bad.
This has been my experience they are church goers who think they have made some kind of commitment, at some point felt sorry for their sin, know scripture to some degree, but have never really died to themselves and their self effort.

The church does not even know how to preach the Gospel of Liberty anymore, truly tragic.

All sin is destructive on some level.
You are brave to draw attention to this hypocrisy.

 

[seoulsearch]

Yes, He will! But have we changed the conversation to Christians struggling with homosexuality? Some Christians face those struggles until they are called home. But a Christian struggling is a different conversation than someone who isn't saved. Both are sexual sins and they are the worst to break free from. And I believe if we were all honest with whatever our struggles are and could call some friends and say " I need prayer today" we would see a lot more deliverance.

I have said before, if we all got real about our struggles there would be a lot of healing in and out of the church. You know that I had a lot of years in evangelism. So I see it as how do we reach people who are confused about their sex and their gender. The Bible talks about deceiving spirits in the last days, if there ever was a time. smh As the Jesus Revolution said, these kids are looking for the same thing you are, love and acceptance, they are just looking in all the wrong places. It doesn't matter if we can hid our sin, or its out in the open flag flying. God will judge both. But the only difference is our sin/struggle is under the blood, theirs is not. Again we must use discernment and the Holy Spirit to reach the lost, but we must call sin sin. I think we agree on most everything, thanks sister for the discussion.

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb!

Thank you so much for all the time and detail you put into writing your replies. I have only been able to read them once so far and intend to read them a few more times. Please don't think I skipped over anything you said; the reason I'm highlighting this sentence is because I felt like the Holy Spirit was jolting me with emphasis through your words -- that sin must always be addressed and dealt with, never excused, no matter who is committing it.

I so appreciate your experience with the Christian community and the great amount of wisdom you have to share. The story about the young boy and his family who were fun out of town was heart-breaking to read. The funny thing is, believers then wonder why people aren't flocking to the church! Even it's own members are terrified to be their real selves with anyone and to ask for help.

If the world sees that this is how we treat our own, why would they want to listen to anything we have to say? I feel that an important part of witnessing/confronting them is to at least offer them some kind of next step -- such as possibly a home church where they can learn more and get closer to God in a hopefully safe environment.

I'm not saying that church is the end-all, be-all, because churches are imperfect, but for my own self, I don't feel like I can point out someone's sin without at least having something to offer that could gently steer them in another direction (prayer, go with them to church because it can be intimidating, a devotional, etc.)

What troubles me is that it seems like the church has become a place of nothing BUT judgment and correction, and without any empathy or love to balance that out, everyone, including its own members, are going to be driven away.

And again, I'm not condoning or excusing sin (I should probably emphasize this again, lest anyone else would accuse me of saying that sin is somehow ok.)

I just don't want to see the church use someone else's sins as a cop-out for not dealing with its own.

No wonder one of the number one reasons people give for not being part of a church is, "Churches are full of hypocrites."

Hopefully, we can all be part of a movement to change that.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb!

Thank you so much for all the time and detail you put into writing your replies. I have only been able to read them once so far and intend to read them a few more times. Please don't think I skipped over anything you said; the reason I'm highlighting this sentence is because I felt like the Holy Spirit was jolting me with emphasis through your words -- that sin must always be addressed and dealt with, never excused, no matter who is committing it.

I so appreciate your experience with the Christian community and the great amount of wisdom you have to share. The story about the young boy and his family who were fun out of town was heart-breaking to read. The funny thing is, believers then wonder why people aren't flocking to the church! Even it's own members are terrified to be their real selves with anyone and to ask for help.

If the world sees that this is how we treat our own, why would they want to listen to anything we have to say? I feel that an important part of witnessing/confronting them is to at least offer them some kind of next step -- such as possibly a home church where they can learn more and get closer to God in a hopefully safe environment.

I'm not saying that church is the end-all, be-all, because churches are imperfect, but for my own self, I don't feel like I can point out someone's sin without at least having something to offer that could gently steer them in another direction (prayer, go with them to church because it can be intimidating, a devotional, etc.)

What troubles me is that it seems like the church has become a place of nothing BUT judgment and correction, and without any empathy or love to balance that out, everyone, including its own members, are going to be driven away.

And again, I'm not condoning or excusing sin (I should probably emphasize this again, lest anyone else would accuse me of saying that sin is somehow ok.)

I just don't want to see the church use someone else's sins as a cop-out for not dealing with its own.

No wonder one of the number one reasons people give for not being part of a church is, "Churches are full of hypocrites."

Hopefully, we can all be part of a movement to change that.

I've heard it said that the church is like a hospital. Again, I think a good start would be in homes. They use to do that in the 70s. That way people can feel they are not being preached at and people are more willing to ask questions. As I said, if we're gonna sit with arms folded and think sinners are going to come to us, we're mistaken. But then we have so many churches with the "us four and no more" attitude that I wonder if they care if sinners come in.

I use to laugh at churches that would call us in for outreach ministry and then have an open air service in their church parking lot. People loved it, sit in their cars, hear a short message, and leave. Somehow they saw that as outreach. Reminds me of the following story...
"Several young Salvation Army officers ask their leader, General William Booth, “How can we save the lost?” They had felt like they had exhausted everything that they knew to do. So Booth tore off a piece of brown paper sack and wrote two words. He handed it to these young zealous leaders and the note read, “Try tears.”
If we first don't love the lost like Jesus does, then we might as well stay home and not even bother. There was a time when we were lost, if we don't have the empathy to reach out to others there is a serious problem with our relationship with God.

 

[CS1]

I did not in any way, shape, or form justify homosexuality in my post.

And if I did, I invite someone to please report me to the mods for promoting homosexuality because that goes against the fundamental Christian beliefs that are the basis for this forum.

And if you read my post again, you will see that I said that I believe sodomy is wrong in ANY case, no matter who it involves.

What I did say, is that yes, sexual sin in ALL forms, both homosexual AND straight, must be confronted and dealt with.

My pondering is this: many straight, married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sins, and yes, they could be saving these people's souls.

I repeat: Homosexuality is wrong and it is sin -- no question about it. And it must be confronted.

BUT, so do the sexual sins of married Christians -- so who is going to confront them? After all, it might very well be saving their souls, too.

My point is, one groups sins cannot be ignored while another is openly condemned, because BOTH groups must have their sins adequately confronted and dealt with.

I realize my posts will probably be met with a lot of red X's and I debated on not saying anything at all. But I do feel I posted for a reason, and all I can do is continue to pray.

Again, if you see me as promoting homosexuality, report me to the mods and I will accept my correction and/or banning.

Yes, you did.
And it is my opinion as I see it from your post. One can justify a sin here that is not something a Mod necessarily deals with. It is promoting it.

And as you said :

"My pondering is this: many straight, married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sins, and yes, they could be saving these people's souls. "


Do you assume Married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sin? Yet it is the Homosexual who has sought to have what Married couples have and cannot. The red X means one "disagrees with," so don't put too much into it I have many myself, get over it ok. No one has ignored Those who are not Homosexual. You are trying to justify homosexuality by speaking of " Strait People?"

 

[CS1]

I've heard it said that the church is like a hospital. Again, I think a good start would be in homes. They use to do that in the 70s. That way people can feel they are not being preached at and people are more willing to ask questions. As I said, if we're gonna sit with arms folded and think sinners are going to come to us, we're mistaken. But then we have so many churches with the "us four and no more" attitude that I wonder if they care if sinners come in.

I use to laugh at churches that would call us in for outreach ministry and then have an open air service in their church parking lot. People loved it, sit in their cars, hear a short message, and leave. Somehow they saw that as outreach. Reminds me of the following story...
"Several young Salvation Army officers ask their leader, General William Booth, “How can we save the lost?” They had felt like they had exhausted everything that they knew to do. So Booth tore off a piece of brown paper sack and wrote two words. He handed it to these young zealous leaders and the note read, “Try tears.”
If we first don't love the lost like Jesus does, then we might as well stay home and not even bother. There was a time when we were lost, if we don't have the empathy to reach out to others there is a serious problem with our relationship with God.

The problem with the Sick soul in many Liberal churches is those sick souls are being told it's okay to be gay God loves you and made you that way. That is a lie from the pit of hell. They are coming in sick and living the same way and have no real encounter with Christ. Just emotional Mumbo jumbo.

 

[seoulsearch]

Yes, you did.
And it is my opinion as I see it from your post. One can justify a sin here that is not something a Mod necessarily deals with. It is promoting it. And as you said :"My pondering is this: many straight, married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sins, and yes, they could be saving these people's souls. "

Once again, if you read over my posts, I am not promoting homosexuality in any way. I've written several other posts explaining my point of view.

Do you assume Married Christians have no qualms about confronting others over their sexual sin? Yet it is the Homosexual who has sought to have what Married couples have and cannot. The red X means one "disagrees with," so don't put too much into it I have many myself, get over it ok. No one has ignored Those who are not Homosexual. You are trying to justify homosexuality by speaking of " Strait People?"

I don't care about you giving me a red X. However, I will stand up for myself when being falsely accused of something I didn't do.

Several posts back, another poster pointed out that homosexuals commit sexual sins, but married Christian people also commit sexual sins, and this is the point I am addressing. I'm not sure how you see this as promoting homosexuality, because I have said NUMEROUS times in both posts that homosexuality is SIN, but keep reading it as you are interpreting it for yourself. I can't do anything about that, as you've made up your own mind.

To be honest, from the way you are replying and the way you are restructuring my sentences in your last paragraph, I think most posts are mostly confusing you. And that's ok.

I wasn't going to say anything at all, but I truly believe that someone who has read this might have needed to, and that's why I felt compelled to write.

I don't know how to break it down into any plainer English. At least some of the other posters here seem to understand what I'm saying, so I'm thankful to those for whom my posts have not been in vain.

ANYONE can confront a homosexual about their sin, whether a single Christian or married Christian. But what I think the other poster I was referring to was trying to say, and what I am saying in my posts, is that we have to realize EVERYONE has some kind of sexual sin.

I have seen this attitude in the church that the Christians who are married are "in the clear" and 100% sexually pure just because they're married. But that's just not true, and it never gets addressed. I'm certainly not trying to say that all married Christians are committing sexual sins, but I think it's important to acknowledge that sexual sin that almost everyone has to fight continually -- not just the homosexuals or those who are sinning in a more obvious way.

My posts have been pointing out that many churches seem so focused on correcting others that they aren't addressing their own sexual sins within the church. After all, if we are to help homosexual people become saved, what can we say to them? "Follow me, come join our church, where 80% of the members have continual porn addictions, but we're on a mission to call out everyone else's sins and get them all saved because we're too busy correcting you to worry about us."

My point, as I have said several times, is that all sexual sin is sexual sin. It's just that churches (ones I've been around at least) seem to put so much time and energy into correcting homosexual sins, but yet aren't putting much or nearly enough energy into correcting the sins within the church itself.

God sets us to a higher standard, and while it's a noble and just thing to confront things like homosexual sin, the church has to put an even stricter means of correction towards its own body.

 

[CS1]

Once again, if you read over my posts, I am not promoting homosexuality in any way. I've written several other posts explaining my point of view.



I don't care about you giving me a red X. However, I will stand up for myself when being falsely accused of something I didn't do.

Several posts back, another poster pointed out that homosexuals commit sexual sins, but married Christian people also commit sexual sins, and this is the point I am addressing. I'm not sure how you see this as promoting homosexuality because I have said NUMEROUS times in both posts that homosexuality is SIN, but keep reading it as you are interpreting it for yourself. I can't do anything about that, as you've made up your own mind.

I don't know how to break it down into any plainer English. At least some of the other posters here seem to understand what I'm saying, so I'm thankful to those for whom my posts have not been in vain.

ANYONE can confront a homosexual about their sin, whether a single Christian or married Christian. But what I think the other poster I was referring to was trying to say, and what I am saying in my posts, is that we have to realize EVERYONE has some kind of sexual sin.

I have seen this attitude in the church that the Christians who are married are "in the clear" and 100% sexually pure just because they're married. But that's just not true, and it never gets addressed. I'm certainly not trying to say that all married Christians are committing sexual sins, but I think it's important to acknowledge that sexual sin that almost everyone has to fight continually -- not just the homosexuals or those who are sinning in a more obvious way.

My posts have been pointing out that many churches seem so focused on correcting others that they aren't addressing their own sexual sins within the church. After all, if we are to help homosexual people become saved, what can we say to them? "Follow me, come join our church, where 80% of the members have continual porn addictions, but we're on a mission to call out everyone else's sins and get them all saved because we're too busy correcting you to worry about us."

My point, as I have said several times, is that all sexual sin is sexual sin. It's just that churches (ones I've been around at least) seem to put so much time and energy into correcting homosexual sins, but yet aren't putting much or nearly enough energy into correcting the sins within the church itself.

God sets us to a higher standard, and while it's a noble and just thing to confront things like homosexual sin, the church has to put an even stricter means of correction towards its own body.

What sexual sin does a married Christian couple commit? You do realize that a married couple between one man and one woman is appropriate to have sexual relations, but homosexuality can never be right in any content. So why are you trying to bring the context of the sex of God-approved married in the same manner as homosexuality? Are you married? Are you speaking from your own personal shortcomings?

You know that everyone has some kind of sexual sin. Wow!! I have a qestion for you

Do you think being tempted is a sin? And is a sexual temptation the only battle Christians have to fight?

 

[HeIsHere]

What sexual sin does a married Christian couple commit? You do realize that a married couple between one man and one woman is appropriate to have sexual relations, but homosexuality can never be right in any content. So why are you trying to bring the context of the sex of God-approved married in the same manner as homosexuality? Are you married? Are you speaking from your own personal shortcomings?

You know that everyone has some kind of sexual sin. Wow!! I have a qestion for you

Do you think being tempted is a sin? And is a sexual temptation the only battle Christians have to fight?

I am not really sure what you are going on about her, but you seem to imply that everything goes for a married couple, does that include BDSM and sodomy?

I really feel like you are not comprehending @seoulsearch point.

 

[seoulsearch]

If

I am not really sure what you are going on about her, but you seem to imply that everything goes for a married couple, does that include BDSM and sodomy?

I really feel like you are not comprehending @seoulsearch point.

THANK YOU!

I really appreciate that someone understands what I'm trying to say.

AND THANK YOU TWICE OVER.

 

[HopeinHim98]

Hi @ThereRoseaLamb,

You know I have the utmost respect for you, so I'm not saying this to argue at all -- it's just something I've always pondered, growing up in the church.

I am not in any way saying that homosexuality is justified -- not at all. As Christians, we all know homosexuality is wrong. But I know what I've grown up seeing is a lot of straight, married Christians condemning others who are "obviously" sinning -- openly gay, straight and living together, etc. But the thing I've always wondered, and I think this might be part of what @lonelysummer is getting at, is if straight, married Christians have a right to judge the sexual sins of others, who has the right to stand up to THEM about their own sexual sins?

I have known at least two Christian women who tearfully told me that their husbands preferred oral and anal sex to what we would call normal sex. And since they only preferred women, they considered themselves 100% straight and not doing anything wrong -- all while freely condemning homosexuals and others in outward sexual sin.

But who would be able to step in and correct them? Especially because these women were much too embarrassed to go to their (male) pastor or anyone else. In one case, it was to the point where the husband would just force her, and she was ashamed and terrified to tell anyone. She was sobbing so hard she couldn't talk as she was trying to relate this to me, and I cried right along with her. We both knew, in the churches we were in, she would never be allowed to leave him -- and she certainly wouldn't want to tell anyone why.

What it boiled down to is that these wives were being pressured and/or forced to participate in acts with their husbands that they did not want to do. I realize there would be debate about oral, but I would think Christians would definitely agree that sodomy against anyone, let alone a wife, is wrong.

I honestly think issues like this are a lot more common than anyone in the church is willing to admit.

Likewise, many of the men (including pastors and elders) in the churches I attended confessed to porn addictions, and they weren't having much victory. So they could point out the sins of a homosexual one minute to save that person's soul, while going home and having to hide what they were watching on their computers every night from their wives. How many married Christians are fantasizing about another man or woman during their private time with their spouse?

And won't God judge these things too?

On the outside, these were respected Christian couples, well-known in their churches and community. But their private lives told a much different story.

Another young man, a new Christian, was trying to get away from the sexual sins of his past, and he asked me (online) if God would be ok with him and his wife experimenting with "toys" as a way to help him satisfy his cravings and get over them.

I told him I was raised in a church that believed this was wrong, but I strongly advised him to talk to his own pastor and study what the Bible says for himself.

I don't want to speak for @lonelysummer, but I think I understand where he's coming from. From the time I was a teen, one of my biggest questions became, "What's the difference between between confronting someone in order to save their soul and confronting a self-proclaimed Christian (because only God knows if they truly are) who is repeatedly guilty of habitual sin?"

And why do the ones with the secret sins get away with pointing their fingers at the ones who's sins are outward? The only difference is, one is observable, and the other is not. It's a lot like a young woman who is pregnant out of wedlock -- much is said to condemn and correct her, but usually not so much about the man who is the other part of the equation. It's just that her sin is much more noticeable.

I can admit I might be a bit jaded though, as I grew up watching people claim to be so close to God that they could apparently somehow point out everyone else's sins without anyone else knowing about, or no one was brave enough, to confront them about their own.

Again, I'm not meaning this as an argument at all. And I'm certainly not trying to defend homosexuality.

But the points that were brought up in these posts are something I think and pray about quite often.

I don't know if this point has been made already but I don't think the hype made against homosexuality is so much seeing it as "the ultimate sin" while downplaying the wrongness of "normal" or "straight" sins. At least for me. Instead, a HUGE concern for me is Christians getting lax about right and wrong because of culture and political correctness. Those of us trying to hold fast may look like "haters" or "pharisees" or something else because sometimes we can have a kind of a knee-jerk reaction.

I don't know, I don't want to put words in any other Christians mouth, but that's kind of where I would be coming from. We need to hold fast to truth, yes. And may God help us to have a loving spirit when confronting it.

 

[seoulsearch]

What sexual sin does a married Christian couple commit? You do realize that a married couple between one man and one woman is appropriate to have sexual relations, but homosexuality can never be right in any content. So why are you trying to bring the context of the sex of God-approved married in the same manner as homosexuality? Are you married? Are you speaking from your own personal shortcomings?

You know that everyone has some kind of sexual sin. Wow!! I have a qestion for you

Do you think being tempted is a sin? And is a sexual temptation the only battle Christians have to fight?

Yes. I was married once. He moved out one day while I was at work and didn't tell me. I came home to a half-empty house and received papers in the mail that said, "You are being sued for divorce." He gave me no reason. I was told by Christians that at 25, I would have to remain alone for the rest of my life. I moved away from the area, and it later came out (a long time after he divorced me) that the reason he had left was to be with our 19-year-old co-worker. Once I was gone, they went public with their relationship. He had been dating her while he was still with me.

At last! The first question of your post, "What sexual sin does a married couple commit?" is getting right to the heart of the matter, thank you!

Some Christians seem to think that being married means they don't commit any sexual sins. And some may not -- I'm certainly not accusing anyone of something wrong if they aren't actually doing something wrong.

And yes. A Godly marriage is one man, one woman, and a sanctified marriage bed involving only the two of them in thought, word, and deed. But does that mean a married couple doesn't commit sexual sins? Maybe for some. But not for all.

* If a husband is fantasizing about his pretty young redheaded coworker while with his wife, is he sinning?

* If a spouse is watching things on their computer they have to hide from the other person, is that sin?

* If a wife wishes her husband would make more money, is attracted to their wealthier more powerful neighbor and starts to picture herself with him instead of her husband in personal ways, is that sin?

* If one spouse makes the other participate in sexual acts or uses equipment they are not comfortable with, is that sin?

* If a married couples like to use things seen as unconventional accessories in the bedroom, is that sin?

* If a spouse prefers to use other body parts or apparatuses other than the ones God specifically designed for sex and the other spouse is unwilling, but is pressured into it anyway, is that sin?

The answer to your question of whether or not people in marriage can commit sexual sins would have to conclude with your own personal answers to these questions.

 

[HeIsHere]

If


THANK YOU!

I really appreciate that someone understands what I'm trying to say.

AND THANK YOU TWICE OVER.

You are welcome twice over.

I thought attacking what you do not say only happened in the Bible Discussion Forum.