Zionism among the Evangelicals is contradicted by Scripture

[soberxp]

I did not know that. So would you say Ashkenazi jews are the synagogue of satan then? Those who claim to be Jews but are not? If you think about how middle-eastern people would look, sephardic jew or mizrachi jew would come to mind over a redheaded ashkenazi.

Im interested because I have some ashkenazi jew DNA allegedly [assuming the DNA tests they sell us are reliable]. Granted, I was never circumcised nor did I do a bar mitzvah or anything, I had a regular secular upbringing with Santa Claus and easter bunny, the whole shabang.

The people of Israel didn't realize that they were putting too much emphasis on God's commitment to them. Maybe it was human selfishness that made them think a little of God, maybe only remember the promise of God.

I admit that the Jews suffered injustice in World War II. Maybe PTSD.

What if Jews could think about what they're doing differently than they were?

Love others as yourself. It just means they don't believe the savior is Jesus yet.

In other words, the Jews are always upset, but they can't find the reason, they always feel that the Arab world is against them.

If they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and I won't say much more, all the problems they face can be solved, and then they can only cry at that time, as it says in the Bible.

Love others as yourself.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The people of Israel didn't realize that they were putting too much emphasis on God's commitment to them. Maybe it was human selfishness that made them think a little of God, maybe only remember the promise of God.

Yes, they did, they knew the covenants and the promises God had made to them. But, as all of us, they were human and fell into sin. But God made unconditional promises to Israel and the Jews that are yet to be fulfilled. And the church does not replace them.

I admit that the Jews suffered injustice in World War II. Maybe PTSD.

Maybe PTSD?? I would say tThat's the understatement of the century. Hitler's intent was to genocide the Jews, and he nearly made it happen!!

What if Jews could think about what they're doing differently than they were?

Love others as yourself. It just means they don't believe the savior is Jesus yet.

True, they don't believe yet, but they will.

In other words, the Jews are always upset, but they can't find the reason, they always feel that the Arab world is against them.

Because the Arab world is against them. They want the Jews to be pushed into the sea. The more Jews they kill the happier they are.

If they accept Jesus Christ as their Savior, and I won't say much more, all the problems they face can be solved, and then they can only cry at that time, as it says in the Bible.

They will believe and then Christ will return and bring the enemies of Israel to heel and they will know that the Lord Himself has defended Israel. He will destroy Israel's enemies because they are God's enemies.

 

[presidente]

Actually Paul does say so.

ROMANS 11: THE REDEMPTION OF ISRAEL AFTER THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

"The Deliverer" is none other than the Lord Jesus Christ, and "Sion" is Jerusalem on earth. The Bible tells us that when Christ comes the second time, He will stand on the Mount of Olives (which is just outside Jerusalem) and it will split into two. Of course there is much more to this prophecy, since Christ will send His angels to gather the Jews from around the world to Jerusalem, where a portion of them they will repent, and mourn, and weep, and receive Him as their Savior and Deliverer. Paul mentions "the election" above, and Matthew 24 speaks of the angels gathering "the elect". We do not have the full picture but this should give us food for thought.

The amazing thing is that even though Israel have generally been in rebellion against God, and even though the majority rejected Christ, God has not backed away from His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob ("the fathers" or patriarchs mentioned above). We know that God told Moses He would wipe them out completely, but Moses pleaded for Israel. Moses even lost his opportunity to enter the Promised Land because of their rebellion.

Zechariah is not Paul.

You are also making assumptions. It may be when they mourn for Him whom they have pierced, that that will be the time they repent. But it could be the repentance starts earlier, but there is still some mourning over the lateness of their repentance, seeing Him who they pierced (doesn't seem likely, I'm just pointing out it isn't explicitly.) It may also be that before the second coming, Jews may start to repent... receiving mercy through Gentile believers as Paul encourages in the passage, and many of them repent at the second coming.

By that as it may, Paul doesn't tell us the exact time frame in Romans 11.

 

[Nehemiah6]

By that as it may, Paul doesn't tell us the exact time frame in Romans 11.

Why would it? No one knows the exact time of the Second Coming of Christ. And if you cannot connect the dots between Zechariah and Paul then why are you discussing Bible prophecy?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

But it could be the repentance starts earlier,

I agree that this is the case ^

By that as it may, Paul doesn't tell us the exact time frame in Romans 11.

Consider (a couple things)... very briefly:

--"the FULNESS of the Gentiles" (v.25) is contrasted with "THEIR FULNESS" (v.12) [these aren't occurring at the same time; see also v.15];

--[re: Israel, in part] "blindness / a hardening... UNTIL" [that is, until a certain point in the overall chronology];

--[that certain point in the overall chronology is] "blindness / a hardening... UNTIL the FULNESS of the Gentiles BE COME IN [G1525]" [this "fulness" is not saying that no Gentiles will ever be saved following this point in time, as some suggest; But again, "the FULNESS of the Gentiles" v.25 is contrasted with "THEIR FULNESS" v.12... which are occurring in distinct time periods, not at the same time]





[I do believe they must come to faith PRIOR TO His Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth, at which point it will be TOO LATE--and I believe Scripture itself shows this to be the case; For example, Matt25:40,45's "the least of these My brethren" are not who are BEING judged / separated in the "Sheep and goat judgment [of the nationS]"... but rather, these "least" are the believing remnant of Israel (having come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs) whom those of the "nationS" will either "bless" or not, during those Trib yrs, and thus will themselves either be called by our Lord "ye BLESSED" or "ye CURSED" at His return / coming (to the earth); These "believing remnant of Israel" is also who will be tasked with doing the "INVITING TO" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (aka the wedding feast), via the msg offered IN the Trib yrs: Matt24:14 / 26:13 [/Rev19:9], etc...]

 

[soberxp]

Israel was always in the Old Testament mood that God would lead them through war against the infidels.
In Jesus' time, the people of Israel did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that Jesus could lead them,And then what has Israel ever done? They thought the "god of war" is the Messiah,Then the Jews were driven out of the Promised Land by the Romans.
They never realized the importance of Jesus. God was not leading them to victory and glory this time by the way of war.
But through the love of God's Word, which is Use the Gospel to fight and win.

People always think that the Jews were displaced because of God's punishment,
We call it that Worked to death by itself.
for Jesus come not for peace but the S+word of God.which is Use the Gospel to fight and win. Not starts a war as an Eye for an eye.

In other words, the Jews did not worship the real God; they themselves became pagans, defeated and driven from their homeland by the Romans just as what they were lost in OT,
The root cause was that they did not listen to God's Word, and because they did not follow the right way, they were punished by the Romans.

Because of this mistake of the Jews, the butterfly effect affects World War II.

They are now back in the Promised Land, but they still face the same problems,
They still thought God was leading them through war to solve all their problems.
This is a completely pagan way of understanding.

War will never solve any problem, only trust in God and God's Word.even in the OT, God leading them win the pagan for teaching the pagan to understand what is the fake God.

So the question for the Jewish people today is the same as it was in the time of Romans, how do they properly confront who is the Messiah and what does he teach?

Love others as yourself.
Use the word of God to win the way of life path, not a way leading to death.A way to kill each other.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Israel was always in the Old Testament mood that God would lead them through war against the infidels.

That's because He promised He would, and He did.

In Jesus' time, the people of Israel did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, that Jesus could lead them,And then what has Israel ever done? They thought the "god of war" is the Messiah,Then the Jews were driven out of the Promised Land by the Romans.
They never realized the importance of Jesus. God was not leading them to victory and glory this time by the way of war.
But through the love of God's Word, which is Use the Gospel to fight and win.

The first Christians were Jewish... So some believed and some didn't. God has promises He made to the Jews and He will fulfill them.

 

[Magenta]

Why would it? No one knows the exact time of the Second Coming of Christ. And if you cannot connect the dots between Zechariah and Paul then why are you discussing Bible prophecy?

You come across like a despotic dictator. You do not get to decide
what anyone has to understand before they discuss anything.

 

[presidente]

Why would it? No one knows the exact time of the Second Coming of Christ. And if you cannot connect the dots between Zechariah and Paul then why are you discussing Bible prophecy?

Gaslighting and moving the goalpost.

 

[soberxp]

That's because He promised He would, and He did.




The first Christians were Jewish... So some believed and some didn't. God has promises He made to the Jews and He will fulfill them.

The fact that few Jews believe doesn't change the fact that most people still don't understand it.

Unlike the Gentiles, Israel was once that directly led by God.

If you think Christians tolerance their mistakes because God loves Israel, you are all wrong. If the Jew makes a mistake, and you don't tell them what's wrong with them? When do you think they will wake up to understand it ?

When will the Gentiles be fulfill in number to speak out about Israel and their mistake.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If you think Christians tolerance their mistakes because God loves Israel, you are all wrong. If the Jew makes a mistake, and you don't tell them what's wrong with them? When do you think they will wake up to understand it ?
.

Once all the Gentiles come in...

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When will the Gentiles be fulfill in number to speak out about Israel and their mistake.

Consider Acts 3:21 -
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times [plural] of restoration [G605] of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophets...]






[note the word "TIMES" is plural (and it starts unfolding when Jesus will "descend from heaven" TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"--see 1Th4:13,17)... and note the phrase "of restoration [G605] of all things which God spoke by..."; Note also Rom9:26 / Hos1:10-11 "and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people ['Lo-ammi'--said to ISRAEL], there it shall [future tense] be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." (whereas Rom9:25 / Hos2:23b, by contrast, is referencing the "Gentiles")]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1Th4:13,17

EDIT: meant to put... "see 1Th3:13;4:17"




____________

And I may as well add to this post, that the word "FULNESS [ pléróma - G4138]" carries also the meaning of "fulness [of TIME]"


BLB -

1. completeness or fulness of time

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ran out of EDIT time again... here's the LINK to that last point]

-- BLB - https://www.blueletterbible.org/lexicon/g4138/kjv/tr/0-1/ [G4138 - pléróma , under 2b]


"[II. B.]
B. completeness or fulness of time"



____________


"blindness / a hardening... UNTIL the FULNESS [G4138] of the Gentiles be come in [G1525]"




[this is distinct in meaning from the phrase used elsewhere: "the TIMES of the Gentiles"]

 

[soberxp]

Consider Acts 3:21 -
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times [plural] of restoration [G605] of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age." [i.e. the OT prophets...]






[note the word "TIMES" is plural (and it starts unfolding when Jesus will "descend from heaven" TO "the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR"--see 1Th4:13,17)... and note the phrase "of restoration [G605] of all things which God spoke by..."; Note also Rom9:26 / Hos1:10-11 "and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people ['Lo-ammi'--said to ISRAEL], there it shall [future tense] be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." (whereas Rom9:25 / Hos2:23b, by contrast, is referencing the "Gentiles")]

Rom
11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
11:30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
11:31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

I was refer to this scripture.

 

[soberxp]

EDIT: meant to put... "see 1Th3:13;4:17"




____________

And I may as well add to this post, that the word "FULNESS [ pléróma - G4138]" carries also the meaning of "fulness [of TIME]"


BLB -

1. completeness or fulness of time

Okay, I got what you mean.
When will the Gentiles be fulness of time come in about Israel and their mistake.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, I got what you mean.
When will the Gentiles be fulness of time come in about Israel and their mistake.

[besides what I've written in past posts about the parallel wording in both Ezek39:7 (please read this verse, and noting its phrase "My people Israel" [in view of my previous post]) and Gen45:1b[,6] (re: Joseph's "7-yr famine"), see also the following...]



Consider a post I made in the past:

Post #665 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4457396

(regarding Hosea 5:14-6:3 and its timing issues re: Israel's "future")





[one could also look at Post #675 after viewing the above post at LINK ^ ]




Hope this helps you see my perspective, with regard to your specific question. = )

 

[soberxp]

[besides what I've written in past posts about the parallel wording in both Ezek39:7 (please read this verse, and noting its phrase "My people Israel" [in view of my previous post]) and Gen45:1b[,6] (re: Joseph's "7-yr famine"), see also the following...]



Consider a post I made in the past:

Post #665 - https://christianchat.com/threads/i...-restrains-the-antichrist.195880/post-4457396

(regarding Hosea 5:14-6:3 and its timing issues re: Israel's "future")





[one could also look at Post #675 after viewing the above post at LINK ^ ]




Hope this helps you see my perspective, with regard to your specific question. = )

Thank you for your support.

What I'm trying to say is, will it be the Gentiles who make the right noises and wake up Israel with a great crowd of voices, so that they don't end up lost?

Maybe my thoughts are not the same as the prophecy, maybe God has some other plan, but I don't see it now, I don't understand it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Thank you for your support.

What I'm trying to say is, will it be the Gentiles who make the right noises and wake up Israel with a great crowd of voices, so that they don't end up lost?

Maybe my thoughts are not the same as the prophecy, maybe God has some other plan, but I don't see it now, I don't understand it.

No, it will be the anti-Christ that will wake them up. At first they will trust him, but soon he will betray them and they will realize that Jesus was the Messiah all along.

 

[Dino246]

In Luke 21:32, "this generation" cannot possibly be meaning such...

When a post begins with (some variant of) “the Bible doesn’t mean what it says”, I can’t help being a bit skeptical of what follows.