Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

[cv5]

It's an excellent point because more accurately sovereignty is not about forcing something on someone but being able to do whatever you please and no one or no thing can inhibit you in doing so. That is what God states in Daniel 4:35...He does His will among the armies of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth, and none shall stay His hand...

Man's natural propensity against God in a fallen state merely works against him.

It isn't that God couldn't force people to believe, He just chooses to woo them instead.

There is no reason to make it about calvinism or freewill. The labels have taken a pejorative connotation and inflame passions that withheld might bring people together.

Nobody knows for sure the extent or restraint of God's will.....
This is not the work of men that's for sure.

Eze 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Does this ONLY occur post-repentance according to the "free will" of the Israelites?

Hos 5:15
I will go and return to my place, till they acknowledge their offence, and seek my face: in their affliction they will seek me early.
Hos 6:1
Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Here's another post I'd made (relatedly):

[quoting old post]


Re: "CALLED"... and the TWO distinct Greek words translated "CALL/CALLED" (or "INVITE/INVITED"):


G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"


It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH [/EACH] the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses



G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -


Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited


Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the


Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the


Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were

[NOTE: these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6; see also same word used in Lk14:16,17 and 24]


Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the


Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom





G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -

Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however


Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are



[note: the Matthew 22:[1-7],8-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how these two words are used (re: 'call/invite')]


[end quoting from old post]

 

[cv5]

Here's another post I'd made (relatedly):

[quoting old post]


Re: "CALLED"... and the TWO distinct Greek words translated "CALL/CALLED" (or "INVITE/INVITED"):


G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name"

G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon"


It is important to notice how EACH of these is used in BOTH [/EACH] the Matthew 22:1-14 passage AND the Romans 8:28,30 verses



G2564 - kaleó / kalesai / keklēmenous - "to call / invite / name" -


Matthew 22:3 V-ANA
GRK: δούλους αὐτοῦ καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους
NAS: out his slaves to call those
KJV: servants to call them that were bidden
INT: servants of him to call those having been invited


Matthew 22:3 V-RPM/P-AMP
GRK: καλέσαι τοὺς κεκλημένους εἰς τοὺς
NAS: those who had been invited to the wedding feast,
KJV: to call them that were bidden to
INT: to call those having been invited to the


Matthew 22:4 V-RPM/P-DMP
GRK: Εἴπατε τοῖς κεκλημένοις Ἰδοὺ τὸ
NAS: those who have been invited, Behold,
KJV: Tell them which are bidden, Behold,
INT: Say to those having been invited Behold the


Matthew 22:8 V-RPM/P-NMP
GRK: οἱ δὲ κεκλημένοι οὐκ ἦσαν
NAS: but those who were invited were not worthy.
KJV: but they which were bidden were
INT: those moreover having been invited not were

[NOTE: these ^ had rejected the invitation/call, per vv.3,5,6; see also same word used in Lk14:16,17 and 24]


Matthew 22:9 V-AMA-2P
GRK: ἐὰν εὕρητε καλέσατε εἰς τοὺς
NAS: as you find [there], invite to the wedding feast.'
KJV: ye shall find, bid to
INT: if you shall find invite to the


Romans 8:30 V-AIA-3S
GRK: τούτους καὶ ἐκάλεσεν καὶ οὓς
NAS: He also called; and these
KJV: he also called: and whom
INT: these also he called and whom





G2822 - klétos / klētoi / klētois - "to call / invite / summon" -

Matthew 22:14 Adj-NMP
GRK: γάρ εἰσιν κλητοὶ ὀλίγοι δὲ
NAS: For many are called, but few
KJV: many are called, but few
INT: indeed are called few however


Romans 8:28 Adj-DMP
GRK: κατὰ πρόθεσιν κλητοῖς οὖσιν
NAS: to those who are called according
KJV: to them who are the called according
INT: according to [his] purpose called are



[note: the Matthew 22:[1-7],8-14 passage is referring to the "guests [plural]" of "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom which will be commencing upon His "RETURN" to the earth, whereas the Romans 8 passage is referring to (that which pertains to) "the Church which is His body" (who is not "the guests [plural]"), so there's that distinction to be noted also--not that this makes much difference in how these two words are used (re: 'call/invite')]


[end quoting from old post]

Interesting. See the sequence.

Eze 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 11:20
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 11:21
But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

in their affliction they will seek me early.

I always love this line ^ .

"in their affliction [LXX - thlipsis - G2347 - 'tribulation'] they will seek me early [some have 'earnestly']"



[see this word in Matt24:9,21; Mk13:19,24 <--all of which FOLLOWS "our Rapture" point in time... but Matt24:9 is EARLY in the Trib yrs that is, BEFORE the AOD (MID-point)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Two Calvin quotes:
"Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction." – (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210)
[...and...]
"Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." - (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231)




... if Calvin indeed said [/wrote] those things ^ , they sound pretty clear to me...

(...however, I think he has misunderstood some things...)

 

[oyster67]

Are you married? Most men I know would love to have a wife that agreed with them just half the time.

I hear they are starting to manufacture them in Japan now. I am going to call mine "Calviniko".

 

[Snacks]

Here's something I posted in the past:

[quoting old post]



Luke 7:29-30 -29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel [G1012 - boulēn ] of God against [as to / unto] themselves, being not baptized [having not been baptized] of him."


--G1012 - boulēn - used also in Ephesians 1:11, the verse Calvinists use to say "no one can reject/resist" THIS, God's decreed [determined-plan] will [G1012]... yet Luke 7:30 clearly says the Pharisees and lawyers "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God..." (which, for that time then in existence, the decreed-will of God was: "the baptism of John").

The point being, they did indeed "reject the boulēn G1012 of God". Something that Calvinists say is impossible.


From Bible Hub [quoting]:

Definition: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

HELPS Word-studies

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012 /boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]


[and]

HELPS Word-studies

Cognate: 1014 boúlomai – to plan with full resolve (determination). See 1012 (boulē).

1014 /boúlomai ("resolutely plan") is a strong term that underlines the predetermined (and determined) intention driving the planning (wishing, resolving). In contrast, 2309 (thélō) focuses on the desire ("wishfulness") behind making an offer (cf. TDNT, 1, 629).

[While God's "thelō-offers" can be rejected (see 2309 /thélō), His 1014 /boúlomai ("planning") always works out His purpose, especially in conjunction with presetting the physical scenes of history.]

[end quotes from BibleHub]



They clearly "rejected the boulēn G1012 of God," according to that text.

One might think to answer, well they are just doing what comes naturally (to natural man), but that's to miss the point. The point is, Calvinists say that "no one can reject/resist His 'boule / boulen [G1012]' will (that is to say, His 'decreed' will)."
But Luke 7:30 says these clearly did so.


[end quoting old post]




Thoughts?

That’s an excellent post and I truly appreciate you sharing as you have.

 

[Snacks]

who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction."

Sounds like the Democrat playbook and yet Calvin describes God in such a manner. Utterly disgraceful and heretical.

 

[ButterflyJones]

But you have read people don’t have a choice in the matter.

No, that's not actually what the gospel teaches.

What's always odd in these discussions is to read Christians who are the Elect of God arguing God Electing them and others into his grace is not true.

 

[Snacks]

No, that's not actually what the gospel teaches.

You’re damn right it doesn’t.

 

[Magenta]

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[ButterflyJones]

[

You’re damn right it doesn’t.

God redesigned his Elect unto Salvation.
The natural mind doesn't understand that, the things of God, because they are foolishness to the natural minded.

When God's Holy Spirit enters in and changes that mind so to then understand God's grace, is when the saving relationship is initiated.

It's the good news.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:6-7) which was kept secret ... hid in God ... until God revealed it to Paul.

Right. And Paul says to them in chpt 3:1-4, that he could not speak unto them as "spiritual," but as unto "babes IN Christ" (iow, they are saved persons).





[1Cor2:10,13, also... and v.16b]

 

[cv5]

Interesting. See the sequence.

Eze 11:19
And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 11:20
That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Eze 11:21
But as for them whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.

More.....

Eze 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Eze 20:34
And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Eze 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Eze 20:36
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:37
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

Eze 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

 

[cv5]

Two Calvin quotes:
"Scripture clearly proves that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction." – (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 7, Sec. 2210)
[...and...]
"Now, since the arrangement of all things is in the hand of God, since to him belongs the disposal of life and death, he arranges all things by his sovereign counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death, and are to glorify him by their destruction." - (John Calvin: Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Sec. 2231)




... if Calvin indeed said [/wrote] those things ^ , they sound pretty clear to me...

(...however, I think he has misunderstood some things...)

Maybe a new designation is in order? Was "Calvinists" now "Calvinistas".......

 

[cv5]

I do not believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the gospel. I believe 1 Corinthians 2:14 refers to the mystery, the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:6-7) which was kept secret ... hid in God ... until God revealed it to Paul.





I understand that is what you believe. I don't hold to that understanding.

to me it appears you've got a person born again in order to hear the Gospel message through which the person is born again.
.

Here is a glorious aspect of this mystery revealed.....

1Co 2:9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

[cv5]

More.....

Eze 20:33
As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

Eze 20:34
And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

Eze 20:35
And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

Eze 20:36
Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 20:37
And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

Eze 20:38
And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.

"plead"
H8199 - šāp̄aṭ - Strong's Hebrew Lexicon (kjv) (blueletterbible.org)

Outline of Biblical Usage

1. to judge, govern, vindicate, punish
   1. (Qal)
      1. to act as law-giver or judge or governor (of God, man)
         1. to rule, govern, judge
      2. to decide controversy (of God, man)
      3. to execute judgment
         1. discriminating (of man)
         2. vindicating
         3. condemning and punishing
         4. at theophanic advent for final judgment
   2. (Niphal)
      1. to enter into controversy, plead, have controversy together
      2. to be judged
   3. (Poel) judge, opponent-at-law (participle)

 

[Underwhosewings]

That's definitely the right question. You must have had something high in protein for breakfast.

Good morning Cameron
Is #311 (in Calvin did…..) correct
Sorry about the reprint, it doubled up for some strange reason.

 

[cv5]

It is God’s desire that everyone be saved, but not everyone is saved. How’s that possible if God’s will prevails?

I don't know. Nobody I know knows. Nobody here on CC knows either.
And lets not be so presumptuous to think that anyone else out there does either.

Rom 11:34
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

 

[Underwhosewings]

One cannot truly believe in a Sovereign God and believe that God will wait upon man's choices. Which is it? Is God running the show are is man?

There is no ground for Satan, when we choose to serve God.
So satan is accusing Gods people, day and night.
See how important it is that it’s completely our will and choice to follow God and serve Him.
Satan is accusing God of
“running the show,”
“Doth Job fear God for nought?”
So God gives Satan permission to destroy almost everything Job had.
But Job offered up his words of worship to God.
“fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,”
So that might help some to understand why sometimes trials come our way and our faith is tested.
It’s because Satan is up there trying to accuse us of following God just to get all the blessings.
like Job said…
the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Revelation 12:9-10 KJV
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
[10] And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Job 1:6-12,20-22 KJV
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
[7] And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
[8] And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
[9] Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
[10] Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
[11] But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
[12] And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.
[20] Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped,
[21] And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.
[22] In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.