Hell, Sheol, Hades...

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awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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WB: My position on this issue - unlike that of certain others who base their view on a 'blinkered' understanding of Hell, Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna and which you haven't addressed - is not restricted to just that aspect but is of a wider scope.

I share the views articulated in this article which I am yet again referencing and which no-one in this forum has even attempted to rebut on a point-by-point basis.

https://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
I read the article by: Jeremy Moritz

The only thing I can say, is this guy is either severally confused or is nothing more than a "Humanist". A philosopher of humanistic thinking. He should be told the following: Isa_55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.

He has no concept of what eternal life is because he does not understand those passages that are "Positional" versus those that are "Conditional".

He quotes from Revelation: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11). Then gives a ludicrous explanation from a so-called Dr. Edward Fudge, who says the smoke that rises up, is from the annihilation of those in torment. Which he says goes on for an undisclosed period of time but certainly not forever. This proves two things. One, he doesn't understand how "smoke" is being used in Scripture and Two, he is making unbelievable leaps in interpretation without any proof.

If the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, (A phrase used often in Scripture, to mean forever or an ageless amount of time), how can one try and limit it? If those who are being tormented, are only tormented for a period of time, then where is the forever smoke coming from if everyone has been annihilated? Fire and smoke goes out when there is no more fuel. (I speak foolishly here, like a humanist.). The verse also says: "they have no rest day and night". Again, where does one see an end to this kind of continuous statement?

Perhaps, the most telling paragraph was this one:

DO WE DESERVE IT?
The church's longstanding belief in the eternal torture model of Hell has naturally prompted many to ask the logical question "Why would a just God feel the need to punish us so severely?" In other words, "What has any human being ever done that could possibly deserve such a harsh sentence? How can anyone say that there even exists such a crime as to merit this type of punishment?"

This kind of question is not entertained by true believers. They understand that their God is a Just God and He is a Sovereign God over His Creation. We can never know the heights of His Holiness. Mortal man cannot understand the depths of sin as God knows it. However, Mr. Moritz proves he doesn't understand the basic nature of sin. He proves in the above paragraph, that he does not understand the true heinousness of sin. The heavenly Father, had to put his Holy Son to death, to pay for it's heinous nature which had infected creation. It gets no more heinous than that.

So again: "What has any human being ever done that could possibly deserve such a harsh sentence? They killed the Son of the living God!!!!!!
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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I read the article by: Jeremy Moritz
He has no concept of what eternal life is because he does not understand those passages that are "Positional" versus those that are "Conditional".
Thanks for reading it and sharing your findings.

I agree that many do not understand the differences here (as you point out ^ ) and consequently come to incorrect conclusions.



Then gives a ludicrous explanation from a so-called Dr. Edward Fudge, who says the smoke that rises up, is from the annihilation of those in torment. Which he says goes on for an undisclosed period of time but certainly not forever.
This is the argument I hear most often from those espousing annihilationism... it is very apparent in reading their materials that they've not done a serious study of the phrase "unto the ages [plural] of the ages [plural]" used here in this passages, and in 20 other passages (as I spelled out in a previous post in this thread).

In their human reasoning, it merely means "long-but-limited-time-period" which it does not... CONFLATING this specific phrase with other passages using the word "age / ages" and then reasoning to themselves that the phrase here refers to a "limited" time period, "undisclosed" but not "forever"... which is simply not true.



Again, thank you for taking time to read the article and share what you found there.

It is consistent with what I've "heard" from reading many arguments on this Subject over the years... and they've always proven to overlook this particular point ^ .
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
683
330
63
When Adam & Eve sinned, 4 things happened:
1. They died ... in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
2. Their eyes were opened ... And the eyes of them both were opened
3. They became as God, knowing good and evil ... Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
4. They continued to live, but in torment ... I was afraid, because I was naked

At the end of the rich man’s lifetime, the same 4 things happened:
1. He died ... the rich man also died
2. His eyes were opened ... And in hell he lift up his eyes ... and seeth
3. He became as God, knowing good and evil ... remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things
4. He continued to live, but in torment ... being in torments ... for I am tormented in this flame

A person can be dead in one sense and alive in another, at the same time.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
But firstly at least make the effort to understand my points.

I have yet to see you exegete a verse in scripture, you have responded with snark though.

Yes please exegete the verses according proper hermeneutical principles so I can know your view.

Thank you.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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So, it's ok to 'post your link' but not ok for me? Isn't that a double standard?:

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the grave (Part I)
Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the grave (Part II)


GRACE And Peace...
The difference between us is that throughout this thread I've at various times explained in my own words and making the points about the need to understand the original meaning of the words Hell, Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna; and that much of Revelation is written in symbolic language i.e. the symbols e.g. The Lake of Fire and not to be taken literally and are symbolic of something else.

So, there's no 'double-standard' from me.

You haven't bothered to try to rebut the points in the article I referenced and until such time as you make an attempt I've nothing more to say to you.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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I read the article by: Jeremy Moritz

The only thing I can say, is this guy is either severally confused or is nothing more than a "Humanist". A philosopher of humanistic thinking. He should be told the following: Isa_55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith Jehovah.

He has no concept of what eternal life is because he does not understand those passages that are "Positional" versus those that are "Conditional".

He quotes from Revelation: "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name" (Rev. 14:11). Then gives a ludicrous explanation from a so-called Dr. Edward Fudge, who says the smoke that rises up, is from the annihilation of those in torment. Which he says goes on for an undisclosed period of time but certainly not forever. This proves two things. One, he doesn't understand how "smoke" is being used in Scripture and Two, he is making unbelievable leaps in interpretation without any proof.

If the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, (A phrase used often in Scripture, to mean forever or an ageless amount of time), how can one try and limit it? If those who are being tormented, are only tormented for a period of time, then where is the forever smoke coming from if everyone has been annihilated? Fire and smoke goes out when there is no more fuel. (I speak foolishly here, like a humanist.). The verse also says: "they have no rest day and night". Again, where does one see an end to this kind of continuous statement?

Perhaps, the most telling paragraph was this one:

DO WE DESERVE IT?
The church's longstanding belief in the eternal torture model of Hell has naturally prompted many to ask the logical question "Why would a just God feel the need to punish us so severely?" In other words, "What has any human being ever done that could possibly deserve such a harsh sentence? How can anyone say that there even exists such a crime as to merit this type of punishment?"

This kind of question is not entertained by true believers. They understand that their God is a Just God and He is a Sovereign God over His Creation. We can never know the heights of His Holiness. Mortal man cannot understand the depths of sin as God knows it. However, Mr. Moritz proves he doesn't understand the basic nature of sin. He proves in the above paragraph, that he does not understand the true heinousness of sin. The heavenly Father, had to put his Holy Son to death, to pay for it's heinous nature which had infected creation. It gets no more heinous than that.

So again: "What has any human being ever done that could possibly deserve such a harsh sentence? They killed the Son of the living God!!!!!!
You have offered nothing in the way of facts and evidence and merely given an emotional knee-jerk response which is only opinion and what is evident is you haven't even attempted to make an objective assessment.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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I have yet to see you exegete a verse in scripture, you have responded with snark though.

Yes please exegete the verses according proper hermeneutical principles so I can know your view.

Thank you.
You will not or cannot address the relevant points I legitimately raise, you then, probably because of that situation in which you cannot articulate a reasonable response falsely accuse me of 'snark', and now you want me to do what you will not or cannot do.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
I don't mean to continue in this topic, but in the case this topic might be revived too long after I'd forgotten what it is I was thought might be of relevance to it, I want to note my observation while meditating on the topic of the "Spirit of life" and a "life giving spirit" from these two verses:

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:3
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 1Corinthians 15:46


Regarding the breath, (nishmat) of life that was breathed into Adam's nostrils as opposed to the ruach (spirit) that resulted in his becoming a living soul or nefesh (Gen2:7). Animals also have a spirit or ruach (Ecc3;21). If I'm not mistaken, many believe that God breathed His Spirit into Adam, in a similar way that Jesus breathed on His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and so is eternal by default, but this seems to show otherwise.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,208
113
I don't mean to continue in this topic, but in the case this topic might be revived too long after I'd forgotten what it is I was thought might be of relevance to it, I want to note my observation while meditating on the topic of the "Spirit of life" and a "life giving spirit" from these two verses:

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:3
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 1Corinthians 15:46


Regarding the breath, (nishmat) of life that was breathed into Adam's nostrils as opposed to the ruach (spirit) that resulted in his becoming a living soul or nefesh (Gen2:7). Animals also have a spirit or ruach (Ecc3;21). If I'm not mistaken, many believe that God breathed His Spirit into Adam, in a similar way that Jesus breathed on His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and so is eternal by default, but this seems to show otherwise.
But yet, there is that possibility that because Jesus died for the sins of the world so that many would be made righteous:

So then, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.-Romans 5:18-9

and all will be resurrected, whether to life or damnation (Imo, these are that commit the one unpardonable sin), where otherwise there is no hope of resurrection whatsoever... the next question that begs to be answered then is, "why are the damned resurrected at all?" and, of course, all considered without the premise assuming the truth of the conclusion.

This is something on my revisit list.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
You will not or cannot address the relevant points I legitimately raise, you then, probably because of that situation in which you cannot articulate a reasonable response falsely accuse me of 'snark', and now you want me to do what you will not or cannot do.
Btw the website you posted is complete exegesis.

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The annihilationists post this verse at nauseam, without understanding the meaning of the words within the context of the text along with the correct understanding of the meaning of the words as used in ancient literature.

Death is being "separated" not the Lake of Fire

Eternal relates to the quality of life.

Sin brings separation and destroys the soul, the gift of salvation brings quality of life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
61,138
30,286
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When Adam & Eve sinned, 4 things happened:
1. They died ... in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
2. Their eyes were opened ... And the eyes of them both were opened
3. They became as God, knowing good and evil ... Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
4. They continued to live, but in torment ... I was afraid, because I was naked

At the end of the rich man’s lifetime, the same 4 things happened:
1. He died ... the rich man also died
2. His eyes were opened ... And in hell he lift up his eyes ... and seeth
3. He became as God, knowing good and evil ... remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things
4. He continued to live, but in torment ... being in torments ... for I am tormented in this flame

A person can be dead in one sense and alive in another, at the same time.
This is true :) Many believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, despite the fact that we are told that Jesus only taught in parables, and it is placed in Scripture within a slew of other parables. Consider also that after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God barred the way to the Tree of Life, lest they eat of it also and live forever. Yet somehow God, according to many, has reversed His position on this, and will keep alive forever after those who refuse to acknowledge Him as sovereign Lord, believing not in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ by grace through faith for the remission of their sins. <= This is the means that Scripture teaches by which we put on immortality. Aside from that, God alone is immortal. The soul of man is not inherently immortal. To hear some speak, God is unable or incapable of destroying that which He created, despite the plethora of verses which attest otherwise.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,339
2,465
113
This is true :) Many believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, despite the fact that we are told that Jesus only taught in parables, and it is placed in Scripture within a slew of other parables. Consider also that after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God barred the way to the Tree of Life, lest they eat of it also and live forever. Yet somehow God, according to many, has reversed His position on this, and will keep alive forever after those who refuse to acknowledge Him as sovereign Lord, believing not in the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ by grace through faith for the remission of their sins. <= This is the means that Scripture teaches by which we put on immortality. Aside from that, God alone is immortal. The soul of man is not inherently immortal. To hear some speak, God is unable or incapable of destroying that which He created, despite the plethora of verses which attest otherwise.
It does not matter if it is literal (as in actually happened) Jesus never spoke in fantasy/science fiction He always used real world scenarios.

So the background of the story has reality as does the parable of the sower and all the others.

Annihilationism is still false without an immortal soul, spirit of a person continues after death
 
Oct 12, 2021
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You will not or cannot address the relevant points I legitimately raise, you then, probably because of that situation in which you cannot articulate a reasonable response falsely accuse me of 'snark', and now you want me to do what you will not or cannot do.
Yes indeed. Your indifference says it all.
 
Oct 12, 2021
165
21
18
I don't mean to continue in this topic, but in the case this topic might be revived too long after I'd forgotten what it is I was thought might be of relevance to it, I want to note my observation while meditating on the topic of the "Spirit of life" and a "life giving spirit" from these two verses:

For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:3
So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being;” the last Adam a life-giving spirit. 1Corinthians 15:46


Regarding the breath, (nishmat) of life that was breathed into Adam's nostrils as opposed to the ruach (spirit) that resulted in his becoming a living soul or nefesh (Gen2:7). Animals also have a spirit or ruach (Ecc3;21). If I'm not mistaken, many believe that God breathed His Spirit into Adam, in a similar way that Jesus breathed on His disciples to receive the Holy Spirit and so is eternal by default, but this seems to show otherwise.
Indeed so. IF it was the same Spirit breathed into Adam - and is the same Spirit as that which His apostles and disciples received - than all descendants of Adam would, logically, have had that same Spirit. And IF that were the case in that it is the same Spirit received by apostles and disciples what need was there to receive that Spirit if they already had it.

And so it would seem you have made a most interesting point.
 
Oct 12, 2021
165
21
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Btw the website you posted is complete exegesis.

Rom 6:23—"For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

The annihilationists post this verse at nauseam, without understanding the meaning of the words within the context of the text along with the correct understanding of the meaning of the words as used in ancient literature.

Death is being "separated" not the Lake of Fire

Eternal relates to the quality of life.

Sin brings separation and destroys the soul, the gift of salvation brings quality of life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
So you keep saying. But where is YOUR correct exegesis of Scripture? Simply repeating the same thing ad nauseam does not make it true.
 

NilsForChrist

Active member
Jan 31, 2023
183
86
28
When Adam & Eve sinned, 4 things happened:
1. They died ... in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die
2. Their eyes were opened ... And the eyes of them both were opened
3. They became as God, knowing good and evil ... Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil
4. They continued to live, but in torment ... I was afraid, because I was naked

At the end of the rich man’s lifetime, the same 4 things happened:
1. He died ... the rich man also died
2. His eyes were opened ... And in hell he lift up his eyes ... and seeth
3. He became as God, knowing good and evil ... remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things
4. He continued to live, but in torment ... being in torments ... for I am tormented in this flame

A person can be dead in one sense and alive in another, at the same time.
Exactly.
Death is being "separated" not the Lake of Fire
Actually, it is not seperation either. It is "torment in the presence of the lamb" (Revelation 14:10).