Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
Chapter and verse. I'm not reading 28 chapters to satisfy your lazy ego.
Acts 13:13-16, 42 - In the Synagogue, on Sabbath Day Paul preached...gentiles (also called religious proselytes in the chapter) and then asked him to preach again to them the next sabbath...in the synagogue.

Acts 14:1 - In the synagogue of the Jews, Paul spoke and a great multitude of Jews and Greeks (gentiles) believed.

Acts 15:19 - James' instructions to be given to gentiles: "don't worry about circumcision but abstain from these...because 'Moses' is read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Acts 15:23 - Letters were then written sharing James' instructions and sent specifically to "the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia"

Acts 17:1-4 - In the synagogue of the Jews, Paul reasoned with them 3 sabbath days. Few Jews believed but a great multitude of devout Greeks (gentiles) believed.

Acts 17:10-12 - In the synagogue of the Jews many Greek women, men, and Jews believed Paul.

Acts 18:4 - Paul reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks

Acts 18:7 - Justus was a devout Greek who "join hard" to the synagogue who opened his home to Paul.

-----

In the synagogue is where the Word of God (also known as the Torah and nicknamed "the law" and "Moses") was read.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
What I am saying is that those verse 20 statements are not connected to the Mosaic law nor can they be. And yes, they are guidelines to be followed by gentile converts.

Act 15:19 - Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Trouble them not with fleshy circumcision, but tell them to abstain from:

- pollutions of idols

- fornication

- things strangled

- from blood

How aren't they connected? Each of these things is found in the Law. Abstaining from them literally has no benefit outside of obedience to the Almighty's law, which means they're given to the gentiles specifically for religious/faith-based adherence. And again, why give them...to gentiles...who attended synagogue...if the law is void after the cross? Unless it's not void.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
Acts 13:13-16, 42 - In the Synagogue, on Sabbath Day Paul preached...gentiles (also called religious proselytes in the chapter) and then asked him to preach again to them the next sabbath...in the synagogue.

Acts 14:1 - In the synagogue of the Jews, Paul spoke and a great multitude of Jews and Greeks (gentiles) believed.

Acts 15:19 - James' instructions to be given to gentiles: "don't worry about circumcision but abstain from these...because 'Moses' is read in the synagogues every sabbath day."

Acts 15:23 - Letters were then written sharing James' instructions and sent specifically to "the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia"

Acts 17:1-4 - In the synagogue of the Jews, Paul reasoned with them 3 sabbath days. Few Jews believed but a great multitude of devout Greeks (gentiles) believed.

Acts 17:10-12 - In the synagogue of the Jews many Greek women, men, and Jews believed Paul.

Acts 18:4 - Paul reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks

Acts 18:7 - Justus was a devout Greek who "join hard" to the synagogue who opened his home to Paul.

-----

In the synagogue is where the Word of God (also known as the Torah and nicknamed "the law" and "Moses") was read.
Yes, a few gentiles, but as an aggregate, no. Those who did were anomalous. Your argument doesn't hold water.
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
448
83
Personally, I think that the things mentioned at the Jerusalem Council for the gentiles to do was a capitulation and not meant for doctrine. I just don't think that it was a Spirit lead decision.

(from gotquestions.org)
It is interesting that the issue the Jerusalem Council was dealing with is still very much an issue in the church today. There are groups still teaching that Christians must obey the Old Testament Law. Whether it is the Sabbath day or the food laws or all of the Old Testament Law outside of the sacrificial system—there are groups that declare observance of the Law is either required for salvation or at least a crucially important aspect of the Christian life. Sadly, these groups either completely ignore or grossly misinterpret the decision of the Jerusalem Council. The specific goal of the Jerusalem Council was to decide what aspects, if any, of the Old Testament Law Christians must observe. The Jerusalem Council, for the sake of melding the Jewish and Gentile cultures within the Antioch church, said that the Gentiles should eschew their former pagan practices associated with idolatry. There was no mention of the Sabbath whatsoever. Further, the Jerusalem Council made it abundantly clear that these rules were not requirements for salvation by reaffirming that salvation is by grace for both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 15:11). How many arguments would be solved if the church today would simply follow the principle set by the Jerusalem Council—limit your liberty for the sake of love?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,778
8,614
113
Trouble them not with fleshy circumcision, but tell them to abstain from:

- pollutions of idols

- fornication

- things strangled

- from blood

How aren't they connected? Each of these things is found in the Law. Abstaining from them literally has no benefit outside of obedience to the Almighty's law, which means they're given to the gentiles specifically for religious/faith-based adherence. And again, why give them...to gentiles...who attended synagogue...if the law is void after the cross? Unless it's not void.
Gal 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Conversely, if you are NOT circumcised (in the flesh), you are a debtor TO NONE OF IT!
Which is obviously the decision reached by the Acts 15 council.

Phl 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
193
43
I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?



Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?
 

Bruce_Leiter

Active member
Feb 17, 2023
427
193
43
You bring up a very fascinating subject for us. It's one I've meditated on in seminary and during 27 years of preaching. My answer is that it involves the similarities and differences between the old and new covenants. The differences are that the national, outward forms of the law have been fulfilled in Jesus' death. For example, the bloody sacrifices and the external Sabbath regulations for Israel no longer apply to Christians. On the other hand, the inner principles of the law still apply to our obedience for God's will, once we come to trust in Jesus. For example, "You shall not murder" means for Christians that we are to "protect and preserve life." Furthermore, the laws about clean and unclean foods become our need to overcome our inner uncleanness and replace the old-nature qualities with new-nature qualities (Colossians 3--the result of Jesus' resurrection [verse one]). I'm sure that you can come up with your own examples.
 
Dec 29, 2022
59
39
18
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

How clear can it be!
 
Feb 4, 2023
38
19
8
I've heard other sincere believers say that since Jesus kept the Laws of Moses we should keep them or at least try and somehow that is following Him. Is this what Jesus was talking about in these passages?

Mathew 5:17-20 Jesus said, Do not think that I came to destroy the law and the prophets. No , I have not come to destroy them , but to fulfil them... whoever breaks the least of these commandment , and teaches men so, he will be called the least in the kingdom....

Mathew 5 verse 20 For I(JESUS) say to you, unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you cannot enter the kingdom of heaven.

In verse 17, Jesus said we're teach and do the law of Moses to be great in the kingdom and in verse 20 Jesus said unless your rightousness exceeds the rightousness of the Law you'll in no case enter the kingdom of heaven.
Are we to do both, keep the Law of Moses like Jesus, and keep Jesus words in red . Would that be exceeding the scribes and pharisees rightousness?
The new covenant does not require the physical observations or ordinances anymore but as Apostle Paul said:

1 Corinthians 9:19-23 KJV
For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. [20] And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; [21] To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. [22] To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. [23] And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Loving our neighbors is the fulfilling the law. To the Jew they became a Jew so that they may win the Jew and not cause them to stumble. They did observe some of the law for the sake of not becoming a stumbling block to them.

You will see in Acts 15 how they discussed the matter and said that they should not trouble the gentiles by requiring them to observe the law but that they abstain from blood and fornication and idols.

In Acts 21, we see Paul observe the law for the sake of the Jews who were believers but are zealous to the law because they heard the news that he was preaching to the Jews among the gentiles not to circumcise their children anymore and forsake the law of Moses.


Acts 21:20-26 KJV
And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: [21] And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
[22] What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
[23] Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; [24] Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
[25] As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
[26] Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Jesus likewise taught his disciples to obey what the scribes and Pharisees tell them because they are in Moses' seat and are in authority. But he said not to do according to their works because they say but don't do.

Matthew 23:1-4 KJV
Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
[2] Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
[3] All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
[4] For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.

This is how we really are to love others. There's no more shoulds. That's why there are divisions among the churches because of the ordinances and many have been made to stumble because of them. This works for individual Christians.

Romans 14:14-17,19-23 KJV
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [19] Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. [20] For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. [21] It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. [22] Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. [23] And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

When you do not cause to stumble anyone, you have fulfilled the law and therefore you exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Christ kept the Law of Moses, so....


Christ fulfilled the Law, so... we are no longer under the law, but under grace. This is elementary and fundamental Christian doctrine.
Because Christ did not lie, am i free to lie? Because Jesus didn't steal, do i have grace to steal? Because Jesus obeyed the law for me, can i live without any laws and not worry about the guilt...?

Some moral laws do not change with time. And as children of God the moral law, royal law, law of liberty, is a delight for His children.

Psa 1:2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

I don't do it to be saved but because i delight in the love of God.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.


If the hour of His judgement has come, is justice, and law going to be involved?
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
6,066
1,948
113
Does that mean we can freely do the things that Christ paid the price for?
Who pays for your sins?
How are your sins paid for?
Jesus paid the price on the cross
If he did not. Then our sin will condemn us to hell forever. Because Jesus is not going to come back and pay for sin again, there would be no hope
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,602
13,861
113
Does that mean we can freely do the things that Christ paid the price for?
Who pays for your sins?
How are your sins paid for?
You are making the common error of legalists: a false dichotomy.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
Does that mean we can freely do the things that Christ paid the price for?
Who pays for your sins?
How are your sins paid for?
1 Corinthians 6:12
“All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.”

1 Corinthians 10:23
“All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.”
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
113
Gal 5:3
For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Conversely, if you are NOT circumcised (in the flesh), you are a debtor TO NONE OF IT!
Which is obviously the decision reached by the Acts 15 council.

Phl 3:3
For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
It's hard to respond to this because you and I are reading these passages differently. But yes, the council would've agreed with Paul's message in Galatians 5 regarding fleshy circumcision because that's why James pronounced his instructions be sent to all new Gentile converts. Fleshy circumcision wasn't necessary because the true form of circumcision is of the heart, by the Spirit.


Circumcision of the Heart Defined

Deuteronomy 10:12-17
12 And now, Israel, what doth the Lord thy God require of thee, but to fear the Lord thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the Lord thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul

13 To keep the commandments of the Lord, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?

14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens is the Lord's thy God, the earth also, with all that therein is.

15 Only the Lord had a delight in thy fathers to love them, and he chose their seed after them, even you above all people, as it is this day.

16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:



Circumcision of the heart is to fear the Almighty, walk in all His ways, love Him, and serve Him with all one's heart and soul and to keep His commandments...this is why flesh circumcision isn't necessary, because it's just an outward expression of the true circumcision that happens when someone loves the living God so much to want to serve him with everything they are.

Fleshy circumcision is going backward because, after the giving of the Holy Spirit, true circumcision (i.e. love & obedience) is now possible in fulfillment of the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:33.


Jeremiah 31:33 (partial)
I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts

Ezekiel 36:27
And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.


A spiritually circumcised person WANTS to obey the living God; wants to follow His commandments.

So the council said to new gentile converts, "don't worry about fleshy circumcision, but do this for now; avoid these sins..."

- pollution of idols

- fornication

- things strangled

- from blood

...because "Moses" (i.e., God's law delivered through Moses) is preached to them every sabbath day in the synagogues.

In other words, they'll eventually learn everything that is required for obedience in time, but for now, tell them to stay away from the four sins above, which would be a significant departure from their past lives as pagans.