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Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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Such large families are a rarity these days. Kudos to you and your wife, number one and number two. Truly!
Neither my first wife or I were saved when we married. When I got saved I wanted desperately to let God make all the decisions because all my decisions ended poorly. But I was already in my 30s and wondered about having kids later in life. So I knew I needed to let God decide so I just asked God would He let me keep my strength until I die as He did with Moses. So far, so good.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Let me just say this, it is not proper for us as believers, to go beyond Scripture or to speculate. God does not tell us what these men understood or didn't understand in the OT. Occasionally, we are told what the disciples understood or didn't. But only God can know what any of us truly understand. We may think we have got it but be far off base. Today we have the benefit of the indwelling Holy Spirit and the completed Word; therefore, we should have a better understanding. than those before us, if we have applied our self to study and prayer but I do not take anything away from what the Lord may have made clear to the Prophets, through direct revelation.
amen

“God does not tell us what these men understood or didn't understand in the OT.”

Amen

We aren’t really taught by Enoch or Abraham or Noah we just know they were faithful men who walked with God and obeyed him by faith we even know Noah was a preacher of righteousness but we’ve never heard any teachings from Noah

“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8-9‬ ‭

“and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even though Noah preached righteousness we’ve never heard a single thing he taught or preached

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭

That’s the righteousness of faith we are hoping to inherit

we aren’t told what they believed but in the new testement we’re taught the eternal truth that we and all must believe to be saved
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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Believers that go to be with the Lord.. go to heaven.. yes. But all believers aren't there yet assembled together.

That won't happen till the New Jerusalem.

And so I don't believe in a universal, invisible assembly. Because it is not completely assembled. It isn't one body yet.

To the next question.. one local church makes one body. It's not body.. as in Jesus ' own body or body as in one big unassembled mass .. but body as in group, congregation, assembly.

One Jesus .. with many assemblies He calls His own.

What is universal in scripture... is the Family of God and the Kingdom.

Like you say ..the local assemblies represent the Kingdom. They are the visual representations of it. But they aren't the same thing. They are in it.. but not all of it.

Lastly.. when you see 'there is one body.. one faith.. one baptism.. in Ephesians..

First.. 'there is' is added. Bibles that are honest.. show this. So it could be read as just 'one body.. one faith..'

Next thing is the church in question is at Ephesus.

That's the body being talked about .

Look at all the language about unity and togetherness.. that's only do able for the church at Ephesus.

As an example to other churches. Churches plural.

All believers will be one church in the end. But ot isn't a present state of being. Now we have Churches plural inside the Family and Kingdom.
I see where you are going with this and indeed, many passages are about the local assembly in which the writer is addressing. Having said that, I see you fail to understand the Universal aspect, Invisible and concurrent with the local aspect. For instance. let's examine the logic of your statement:

You said: "And so I don't believe in a universal, invisible assembly. Because it is not completely assembled. It isn't one body yet."

If we follow through on this, then there is no local assembly either, since this local assembly is being added to, day by day and therefore, not yet completed. You cannot apply incompletion as a rule unless you apply it to both. Obviously then, both are legitimate assemblies but not yet completed.

Also, you have this in Scripture:

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph. 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:


In God's mind, these things are past tense. {Emphasizing the past tense verbs} We were dead - We were made - You have been saved - Were raised up - were made to sit. These type of expressions, found throughout Scripture emphasize Eternity. While verses about local assembles are temporal. Therefore, as we are members of a local assembly (temporal), we are also members of the Universal assembly (eternal). The local assemblies are not complete yet from our perspective (temporal), but are completed in the realm of God (eternal). God who knows no time, is not waiting for anything. All things are one with Him and have always been and are forever more.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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All that is correct. But speculation is fine as long as you call it what it is and recognize it is beyond scripture. The names someone uses for God is not speculative. They are in scripture. And since names reflect an understanding of God, it isn't speculation as to their understanding.
yeah we are meant to hear and also ponder Gods word considering what it means and could Mean and does mean
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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All that is correct. But speculation is fine as long as you call it what it is and recognize it is beyond scripture. The names someone uses for God is not speculative. They are in scripture. And since names reflect an understanding of God, it isn't speculation as to their understanding.
True enough but this brings us full circle - Is it not speculation only, to try and determine how much Isaiah really knew, about what he wrote about our suffering Lord?
 

awelight

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Aug 10, 2020
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amen

“God does not tell us what these men understood or didn't understand in the OT.”

Amen

We aren’t really taught by Enoch or Abraham or Noah we just know they were faithful men who walked with God and obeyed him by faith we even know Noah was a preacher of righteousness but we’ve never heard any teachings from Noah

“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD. These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8-9‬ ‭

“and spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Even though Noah preached righteousness we’ve never heard a single thing he taught or preached

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭

That’s the righteousness of faith we are hoping to inherit

we aren’t told what they believed but in the new testement we’re taught the eternal truth that we and all must believe to be saved
Yes indeed, one can only ponder what Enoch may have known and how great his walk before the Lord was. What we do know, is that he was one of only two men to be translated alive into the heavens. A great and joyous blessing!!!!!
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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True enough but this brings us full circle - Is it not speculation only, to try and determine how much Isaiah really knew, about what he wrote about our suffering Lord?
I'm used to going in circles.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
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Yes indeed, one can only ponder what Enoch may have known and how great his walk before the Lord was. What we do know, is that he was one of only two men to be translated alive into the heavens. A great and joyous blessing!!!!!
well my position is the things we learn in the gospel , is what they knew and believed but the ot isn’t intended to teach us that part

what I mean is it’s hidden in the beginning from us but was plainly known by them

what they did but we aren’t informed about in detail like “ whats the lords name that they called upon ?”

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:26‬ ‭

What the gospel teaches us to believe

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who early mankind from the time we’re discussing ( Adam the father , Seth the son , seth the father enos the son )

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what we are told now In The gospel

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-4, 10-13‬ ‭

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


this is saying “ in the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth “ but it’s hidden in the ot and later revealed in the gospel when his name is revealed

“giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:12-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is God , the gospel is when the creator revealed himself and his name and his plan of salvstion for us from death

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Athena after he died for our sins and rose he returned to the glory in which he created all things

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3-5‬ ‭

father and son are one father in heaven and son on earth , God in heaven , the man of God among us ( pulling the Isaiah card )

“Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-2, 14-17, 19-21‬ ‭

“And they remembered that God was their rock, And the high God their redeemer.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭78:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
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True enough but this brings us full circle - Is it not speculation only, to try and determine how much Isaiah really knew, about what he wrote about our suffering Lord?
Gods word is meant to convict us and become our belief system to change our Will and mind it’s a process of faith changing who we are and how we think about God , ourselves , the world around us , death , and really every aspect of life

we need to hear it before we’re ever going to understand it. we have to really let this type of belief be found first

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17

when we really become convicted of this statement of the lord

Then this statement begins to have meaning and become important to the person

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then when they hear something like this as formed of line once said “ fuggedahboutit”

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now your beginning to think like a disciple because your beginning to hear the same word of the same Lord

and then you begin to grow by faith not because your now perfect but because you understand who your lord and savior is

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eventually you feel the heat of the refiners fire when you hear his word enough as you mature in faith and it starts to make sense more

this type of thing we hear and consider and it forces us to grow up

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aid we believe and here his word this is going to cause us to really think bout what he’s saying like we do as we grow up in life we think about things more , understand better when it’s time

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But it’s really important for mature Christian’s not to force feed steak and potatoes upon babes because they don’t understand the same things
 
Feb 5, 2023
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Never said they were. The Bride is made-up of the completed members of the Universal Assembly. In other words, the body of Christ. This body, while under the same Salvation as the OT Saints, are not destined for the same office in the Millennial Kingdom.

The Universal Assembly, is the term for all believers within the Assembly that Christ continues to build. It is not Israel or the so-called New Israel.
There is one flock under God and his son--made up of 2 parts-the little flock and the great crowd--only these will be saved. 2 different promises-the little flock = heaven--the great crowd = Earth) Matt 5:5, Psalm 37:29)= both together = spiritual Israel, meaning-Gods chosen.
 
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There's nothing we can do. The whole world is in the power of the evil one.

Stay prayed up, shielded by God's armor and watch the play.

In the world not of the world.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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There's nothing we can do. The whole world is in the power of the evil one.
I'm not sure what you mean by "there's nothing we can do". As a matter of fact there is plenty that Christians can do, regardless of the devil and his machinations. The Word of God is also "the Sword of the Spirit" and that is the offensive weapon against Satan and his minions.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
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well my position is the things we learn in the gospel , is what they knew and believed but the ot isn’t intended to teach us that part

what I mean is it’s hidden in the beginning from us but was plainly known by them

what they did but we aren’t informed about in detail like “ whats the lords name that they called upon ?”

“And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭4:26‬ ‭

What the gospel teaches us to believe

“And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

who early mankind from the time we’re discussing ( Adam the father , Seth the son , seth the father enos the son )

“which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and what we are told now In The gospel

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-4, 10-13‬ ‭

“In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬


this is saying “ in the beginning Jesus created the heavens and the earth “ but it’s hidden in the ot and later revealed in the gospel when his name is revealed

“giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: in whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: for by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; and, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭1:12-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus is God , the gospel is when the creator revealed himself and his name and his plan of salvstion for us from death

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, In the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Athena after he died for our sins and rose he returned to the glory in which he created all things

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3-5‬ ‭

father and son are one father in heaven and son on earth , God in heaven , the man of God among us ( pulling the Isaiah card )

“Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear: but your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear. And judgment is turned away backward, and justice standeth afar off: for truth is fallen in the street, and equity cannot enter. Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:1-2, 14-17, 19-21‬ ‭

“And they remembered that God was their rock, And the high God their redeemer.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭78:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬
What the OT Prophets had at that time were the TYPES and SHADOWS that all pointed to the one true Redeemer. If they understood the purpose of the types and shadows, then they understood the Redeemer and His necessary coming. They understood the temporary nature of their sacrifices - pushing all things forward to Christ's day. Perhaps these things are best summed up in these verses:

John 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not.
John 5:39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me;
John 5:40 and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life.


The OT Prophets may not have known Jesus by name but they knew there was a coming Redeemer, the Anointed one of God and probably understood that only God could appease God's Justice.

Hence, as you pointed out, Jesus our Lord was and is the Word. Therefore, believing the Truth of God, is the same as believing in Jesus. Since Jesus and the Word are one and the same. The truth points to Christ and the truth is Christ. And Scripture clearly states, that we must worship God in Spirit and Truth. also, the Truth takes center stage with the lost:

2Th 2:10 and with all deceit of unrighteousness for them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:12 that they all might be judged who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness


So I think one could say, that the OT Saints believing in God's Word, was reckoned as believing in Jesus the Christ.
 
Feb 5, 2023
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I'm not sure what you mean by "there's nothing we can do". As a matter of fact there is plenty that Christians can do, regardless of the devil and his machinations. The Word of God is also "the Sword of the Spirit" and that is the offensive weapon against Satan and his minions.
How's that worked out so far?
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
1,629
490
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Gods word is meant to convict us and become our belief system to change our Will and mind it’s a process of faith changing who we are and how we think about God , ourselves , the world around us , death , and really every aspect of life

we need to hear it before we’re ever going to understand it. we have to really let this type of belief be found first

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:16-17

when we really become convicted of this statement of the lord

Then this statement begins to have meaning and become important to the person

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then when they hear something like this as formed of line once said “ fuggedahboutit”

“Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:28-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now your beginning to think like a disciple because your beginning to hear the same word of the same Lord

and then you begin to grow by faith not because your now perfect but because you understand who your lord and savior is

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Eventually you feel the heat of the refiners fire when you hear his word enough as you mature in faith and it starts to make sense more

this type of thing we hear and consider and it forces us to grow up

“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.

But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:46-49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

aid we believe and here his word this is going to cause us to really think bout what he’s saying like we do as we grow up in life we think about things more , understand better when it’s time

“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭7:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But it’s really important for mature Christian’s not to force feed steak and potatoes upon babes because they don’t understand the same things
I am not really sure why you branched off here from the subject under discussion to get into Soteriology? I know your views and I think you know mine.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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I see where you are going with this and indeed, many passages are about the local assembly in which the writer is addressing. Having said that, I see you fail to understand the Universal aspect, Invisible and concurrent with the local aspect. For instance. let's examine the logic of your statement:

You said: "And so I don't believe in a universal, invisible assembly. Because it is not completely assembled. It isn't one body yet."

If we follow through on this, then there is no local assembly either, since this local assembly is being added to, day by day and therefore, not yet completed. You cannot apply incompletion as a rule unless you apply it to both. Obviously then, both are legitimate assemblies but not yet completed.

Also, you have this in Scripture:

Eph. 2:5 even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace have ye been saved),
Eph. 2:6 and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus:


In God's mind, these things are past tense. {Emphasizing the past tense verbs} We were dead - We were made - You have been saved - Were raised up - were made to sit. These type of expressions, found throughout Scripture emphasize Eternity. While verses about local assembles are temporal. Therefore, as we are members of a local assembly (temporal), we are also members of the Universal assembly (eternal). The local assemblies are not complete yet from our perspective (temporal), but are completed in the realm of God (eternal). God who knows no time, is not waiting for anything. All things are one with Him and have always been and are forever more.
I realized the flaw in the logic with both a local assembly and all believers still being added to.

But .. a local assembly does assemble.. they are called out from their homes to a congregation of saved, baptised believers. So it is complete as a church. Even though added to.

All believers though..don't assemble. They never have. It's always been some in heaven some on earth.

So the people in heaven are not complete.

A local church is. Its got its own ordinances and standards and order. It runs as complete before being added to.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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There's nothing we can do. The whole world is in the power of the evil one.

Stay prayed up, shielded by God's armor and watch the play.

In the world not of the world.
Two ways to view it:
The world is coming to an end...give up.
The world is coming to a beginning...get busy.

I like the second perspective.
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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I realized the flaw in the logic with both a local assembly and all believers still being added to.

But .. a local assembly does assemble.. they are called out from their homes to a congregation of saved, baptised believers. So it is complete as a church. Even though added to.

All believers though..don't assemble. They never have. It's always been some in heaven some on earth.

So the people in heaven are not complete.

A local church is. Its got its own ordinances and standards and order. It runs as complete before being added to.
I'm sorry wattie, but this doesn't seem to be going anywhere. On top of that I don't understand your reluctance to acknowledge the Universal aspect of our Lord's assembly. What kind of point are you trying to make here?
 

awelight

Well-known member
Aug 10, 2020
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How's that worked out so far?
While in part, I think I understand where your coming from - If you are making a reference to God's Sovereign Plan and Purpose. That will be accomplished and it does not depend on what we do or do not.

However, it flies in the face of Scriptural commands and ordinances. Submission to God's will is not fatalism. We are commanded to be Prayerful, to put on the whole armor of God and fight the good fight.