Do you observe the Sabbath?

[Dino246]

Are you sure about that?

1 John 3:9
No one who has been born of God practices sin, because His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin continually, because he has been born of God.

Your accusing the brethren of sinning.

See those words, "practices" and "continually"? The are critical to correct understanding of the passage. They don't say "People never commit any sin once they become Christians".

Edit: I just read VARob's post. He thunk it before I thunk it.

 

[thomas64]

See those words, "practices" and "continually"? The are critical to correct understanding of the passage. They don't say "People never commit any sin once they become Christians".

Edit: I just read VARob's post. He thunk it before I thunk it.

Good point, as John states: If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us 1John1:8

 

[thomas64]

A few years ago I went to church on a Saturday to please a friend. The service was much like the service in the Pentecostal church of my youth, apart from a couple of noticeable differences. The thing that initially struck me was, it was continuously stated ‘’You must obey the ten commandments’ ‘’ Though I had obviously heard this stated previously, never to such an extent as I heard it in this church. The second week I was there, I was literally stunned to see people laughing and joking as they took the Lords name in vain, apparently unaware they were breaking the Ten Commandments in doing so. I had never, in over forty years of going to various churches come across such a thing before. It wasn’t just on one occasion I witnessed the Lord’s name being taken in vain but on multiple occasions. One woman was dressed immaculately on a Saturday, with her bible tucked under her arm. She too insisted the ten commandments must be obeyed. And, during the sermon, if the minister said something she approved of she gave out a hearty ‘’Amen’’ Within a few weeks, I found out this woman was having multiple affairs, some overlapping. I said to her one day ‘’How can you do that, you’re breaking the ten commandments?’’ She shrugged her shoulders and responded: ‘’All sin is equal and no ones perfect’’ That woman was far from being the only person in the church having sex outside of marriage. It seemed strange to me, in a church that constantly repeated ‘’you must obey the ten commandments’’ I witnessed more flagrant breaking of the ten commandments than in any other church I had ever been to.

 

[Inquisitor]

Look at the wording. "practices sin," and "sin continually." Other translations have "make a practice of sinning."

Paul knew he still sinned. Read Romans 7. And if Christians don't sin, what are 1 John 1:8-10 for? Throwaway scriptures?


I'm not accusing anyone of sinning. I know for a fact, from the Bible, that everyone sins. The VAST majority of Christians KNOW they still sin.

So if, as you say, everyone is sinning, what makes one Christian any different to another sinning Christian?

You tell me, as far as I am concerned, we can only be saved by grace.

 

[Inquisitor]

Nobody, including the writers of the Bible, seems to have gotten that memo except for you.

Here is another verse about Christians not sinning.

1 John 5:18
We know that no one who has been born of God sins; but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him.

Your church must be a bad church, if it's members continually sin.

 

[Inquisitor]

A few years ago I went to church on a Saturday to please a friend. The service was much like the service in the Pentecostal church of my youth, apart from a couple of noticeable differences. The thing that initially struck me was, it was continuously stated ‘’You must obey the ten commandments’ ‘’ Though I had obviously heard this stated previously, never to such an extent as I heard it in this church. The second week I was there, I was literally stunned to see people laughing and joking as they took the Lords name in vain, apparently unaware they were breaking the Ten Commandments in doing so. I had never, in over forty years of going to various churches come across such a thing before. It wasn’t just on one occasion I witnessed the Lord’s name being taken in vain but on multiple occasions. One woman was dressed immaculately on a Saturday, with her bible tucked under her arm. She too insisted the ten commandments must be obeyed. And, during the sermon, if the minister said something she approved of she gave out a hearty ‘’Amen’’ Within a few weeks, I found out this woman was having multiple affairs, some overlapping. I said to her one day ‘’How can you do that, you’re breaking the ten commandments?’’ She shrugged her shoulders and responded: ‘’All sin is equal and no ones perfect’’ That woman was far from being the only person in the church having sex outside of marriage. It seemed strange to me, in a church that constantly repeated ‘’you must obey the ten commandments’’ I witnessed more flagrant breaking of the ten commandments than in any other church I had ever been to.

The nation of Israel was sinning greatly and they had the book of the law (ten words).

Romans 5:20
The Law came in so that the offense would increase...

That is probably the reason a ten commandment church may transgress much more.

 

[Runningman]

While you neglect drunkenness, factions, selfish ambition, witchcraft, etc.

Which one of the ten warns you against drunkenness?

Which one of the ten warns you against causing factions?

These are deeds of the flesh, and there are many more of these deeds.

Galatians 5:21
Envy, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

The ten commandments are useless in restraining the deeds of the flesh.

I know that you cannot understand what Paul is talking about in Galatians.

Paul disagrees as he said it again here:

Ephesians 5
3But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

 

[Runningman]

Sounds as if your reading from the SDA handbook.

I've never been to a SDA church or read their material. The book I read from is something called the Bible. Try it sometime.

 

[Inquisitor]

Consider:

Pro_20:1 Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise.​

The very nature of the alcohol is described by that verse (and many others - https://archive.org/details/drink-up-these-are-not-drunken-as-ye-suppose_202301 ) and part of that nature is deception (or lying).

The 9th commandment deals with truth, and not lying.

Exo 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.​

In Isaiah 28, the alcohol stole the priest's heart away from God, and the 8th Commandment deals with theft:

Exo 20:15 Thou shalt not steal.​

In so partaking of the alcohol, the priests committed adultery and idolatry, mocked at the things of God and his prophets, etc, breaking all of the commandments.

​

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!​

Isa 28:3 The crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:​

​

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.​

​

Rev_17:2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.​

​

Pro 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:​

Pro 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.​

​

Hos_4:11 Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart.​

The commandments (10 C) cover all things.

Psa_119:96 I have seen an end of all perfection: but thy commandment is exceeding broad.​

I reject your argument.

Bearing false witness against a neighbor is legal terminology, and applies to a courtroom.

A false witness has nothing to do with drunkenness.

 

[thomas64]

Sin is spoken of in two different ways in scripture, ie: 1John1:8&1John3:5-9. So you have to take that into account when quoting verses on the subject. I think it also depends where you set the bar as to what is sin. Is it sin not to obey Jesus literal commands in the gospels? If it is, everyone sins, for I have never met any christian who even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ. Paul states to born again christians, the letter of the ten commandments kills, it is the ministry of death and condemnation. Who claims to perfectly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break? You must fully obey that law not to transgress the ten commandments. But do we all hold the law to the pristene level it is set at?

 

[Inquisitor]

Paul disagrees as he said it again here:

Ephesians 5
3But among you, as is proper among the saints, there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed. 4Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk, or crude joking, which are out of character, but rather thanksgiving. 5For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure, or greedy person (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

How does Paul disagree with me?

All those deeds of the flesh are inherent to everyone. It is impossible to become perfectly holy. Therefore everyone has failed the righteousness test.

So we are back at square one.

How can these selfish, rebellious people, be saved?

 

[Inquisitor]

Sin is spoken of in two different ways in scripture, ie: 1John1:8&1John3:5-9. So you have to take that into account when quoting verses on the subject. I think it also depends where you set the bar as to what is sin. Is it sin not to obey Jesus literal commands in the gospels? If it is, everyone sins, for I have never met any christian who even tried to obey each and every literal command of Christ. Paul states to born again christians, the letter of the ten commandments kills, it is the ministry of death and condemnation. Who claims to perfectly obey the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break? You must fully obey that law not to transgress the ten commandments. But do we all hold the law to the pristene level it is set at?

Of course, you don't obey the law. Your in a constant state of war between the flesh and the Spirit.

I don't stand on a sinless pedestal.

 

[Inquisitor]

I've never been to a SDA church or read their material. The book I read from is something called the Bible. Try it sometime.

Your theology is identical.

 

[Runningman]

Your theology is identical.

I don't believe the SDA church would be a good fit for me for a variety of other deal breakers, but I do agree with them that if there is a church day it should be Saturday, not Sunday.

I'm guessing you're probably a Southern or Independent Baptist based off the things you said. A close second may be Lutheran and least likely is Pentecostal, but I haven't ruled it out.

 

[mailmandan]

See those words, "practices" and "continually"? The are critical to correct understanding of the passage. They don't say "People never commit any sin once they become Christians".

Edit: I just read VARob's post. He thunk it before I thunk it.

1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, because God’s seed [His principle of life, the essence of His righteous character] remains [permanently] in him [who is born again—who is reborn from above—spiritually transformed, renewed, and set apart for His purpose]; and he [who is born again] cannot habitually [live a life characterized by] sin, because he is born of God and longs to please Him. (AMP)

 

[thomas64]

Most accept you are saved by grace through faith, you have done nothing to earn or deserve being placed in a saved state. However, in order to attain to Heaven, biblical law must be obeyed. No one gets a licence to sin, and, in order to show you love God you will obey him by obedience to his laws. What many term the legalistic law can be faultlessly obeyed. The Pharisees of Jesus day, who according to Jesus did not know his Father could fully obey this law. Paul stated as a Pharisee he was blameless concerning this law(Phil3:6) though he could not obey the Ten Commandments/moral law(Rom ch7) So, great emphasis is put on obeying what is often termed legalistic law, if people believe obedience to it is required. It makes them feel good about themselves, they are doing what God requires to prove they love Him, and succeeding. But what is termed the moral law is a bit more tricky. How can this be approached by a person who believes obedience to the written law is needed to attain to Heaven? Most tend to ignore the fact they do not even try and obey each and every command of Christ in the gospels. No peace in concentrating on those commands. The wording of the Ten Commandments is much easier to cope with. So they take priority. And, most who seek to obey the law so they might enter heaven, concentrate on things like, do not commit adultery, do not commit murder, do not steal, don’t build literal graven images. Honour you parents. And if you are in line with things such as these, you cannot be having any gods before your father in Heaven. You are showing your love for God by obeying His laws, so you are secure with him. You can add to that don’t get drunk or smoke, and you then feel all is well.
Unfortunately, the Pharisees of Jesus day, who Jesus said did not even know his Father would have passed all those tests easily. Its watering down the law of God from the pristine level it is set at, to a level you believe you are obeying it. Paul stated the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. He obviously was not watering the law down from the pristine level it is set at. He gave an example in Rom ch7:7-11 as to why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. The example he gave was ‘’Thou shalt not covet’’ He could not obey that commandment, for to do so requires obedience to the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break. I do wonder, if those who do not preach obedience to the written law once saved as a requirement to enter heaven, do so in many cases for they know they will always be guilty under it, for they hold it to the pristine level it is set at. Whereas, many who do insist on obedience to the written law to enter heaven, are, in most cases watering down the law from the pristine level it is set at in order to feel they are obeying well enough to prove their entitlement to enter heaven. Just my thoughts

 

[Dino246]

Most accept you are saved by grace through faith, you have done nothing to earn or deserve being placed in a saved state. However, in order to attain to Heaven, biblical law must be obeyed. No one gets a licence to sin, and, in order to show you love God you will obey him by obedience to his laws. What many term the legalistic law can be faultlessly obeyed. The Pharisees of Jesus day, who according to Jesus did not know his Father could fully obey this law. Paul stated as a Pharisee he was blameless concerning this law(Phil3:6) though he could not obey the Ten Commandments/moral law(Rom ch7) So, great emphasis is put on obeying what is often termed legalistic law, if people believe obedience to it is required. It makes them feel good about themselves, they are doing what God requires to prove they love Him, and succeeding. But what is termed the moral law is a bit more tricky. How can this be approached by a person who believes obedience to the written law is needed to attain to Heaven? Most tend to ignore the fact they do not even try and obey each and every command of Christ in the gospels. No peace in concentrating on those commands. The wording of the Ten Commandments is much easier to cope with. So they take priority. And, most who seek to obey the law so they might enter heaven, concentrate on things like, do not commit adultery, do not commit murder, do not steal, don’t build literal graven images. Honour you parents. And if you are in line with things such as these, you cannot be having any gods before your father in Heaven. You are showing your love for God by obeying His laws, so you are secure with him. You can add to that don’t get drunk or smoke, and you then feel all is well.
Unfortunately, the Pharisees of Jesus day, who Jesus said did not even know his Father would have passed all those tests easily. Its watering down the law of God from the pristine level it is set at, to a level you believe you are obeying it. Paul stated the ten commandments are the letter that kills, the ministry of death and condemnation. He obviously was not watering the law down from the pristine level it is set at. He gave an example in Rom ch7:7-11 as to why he had to die to righteousness of obeying the law. The example he gave was ‘’Thou shalt not covet’’ He could not obey that commandment, for to do so requires obedience to the law relating to the inner man, the law no one but you and God need know you break. I do wonder, if those who do not preach obedience to the written law once saved as a requirement to enter heaven, do so in many cases for they know they will always be guilty under it, for they hold it to the pristine level it is set at. Whereas, many who do insist on obedience to the written law to enter heaven, are, in most cases watering down the law from the pristine level it is set at in order to feel they are obeying well enough to prove their entitlement to enter heaven. Just my thoughts

Welcome to CC!

Good thoughts, generally. I would say that the Law cannot be obeyed today, because there is no temple to which to take one's offering, and no Levite to inspect it or offer it on the altar.

I find that the legalists will commonly make one or both of two specific mistakes: firstly, they employ a false dichotomy, saying that if you don't actively seek to follow the Law, you are actively seeking to sin. That tells me that 'they just don't get it'. One who is filled with the Spirit of God is not naturally inclined to sin the way an unsaved person is. Secondly, they do not pay attention to the "uncomfortable" parts of the Law such as stoning adulterers or making pregnant women drink strange concoctions while cursing themselves. As you say, they water it down.

Both mistakes are built on the false premise that Christians were under the Law in the first place. We aren't; we are under a separate covenant into which we enter by faith, not by obedience.

Allow me to offer a suggestion: in order to make your posts more readable, add white space between sections, and make your paragraphs shorter.

 

[HeIsHere]

Look at the wording. "practices sin," and "sin continually." Other translations have "make a practice of sinning."

Paul knew he still sinned. Read Romans 7. And if Christians don't sin, what are 1 John 1:8-10 for? Throwaway scriptures?


I'm not accusing anyone of sinning. I know for a fact, from the Bible, that everyone sins. The VAST majority of Christians KNOW they still sin.

If we still sin then are we not sinning continually?
So I wonder what is the frequency?

Perhaps that is not what John is stating, perhaps he not addressing the frequency at all.

 

[thomas64]

If you asked nearly all Christians if you had to be sinless to be in a saved state they would respond ‘’No’’ for they know they are not sinless in their flesh (1John1:8)
However, if you asked the same people if you could freely live a lifestyle of sin, or be a slave to sin, where sin completely dominates your life and still be in a saved state, they would also respond ‘’No’’ (1John3:5-9)

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Whereas, many who do insist on obedience to the written law to enter heaven, are, in most cases watering down the law from the pristine level it is set at in order to feel they are obeying well enough to prove their entitlement to enter heaven. Just my thoughts

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat. Appreciate your thoughts.

Correct, the "pick and choose" theology of what we "will or will not obey" when
God's Demand Is That ALL of it be obeyed (James 2:10 cp Deuteronomy 27:26),
But:

Thanks Be Unto God, For His Offer Of The Precious BLOOD Of His SON, Correct?

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...