Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Its not a "belief". It is a Biblically supported doctrine. Beyond all refutation.
This doctrine in NO WAY diminishes the passages you quoted in the least. God IS love, LOVES the world, LOVES ungodly fallen men WHILE THEY WERE YET SINNERS. No doubt about it. God also calls men to repentance and has throughout the ages. Men respond to this calling and receive their salvation, which is the full, ultimate final expression of the love of God.
There is no conflict here as far as God is concerned. All of this is reconciled in the infinite mercy grace and mind of God.
This doctrine in NO WAY diminishes the passages you quoted in the least. God IS love, LOVES the world, LOVES ungodly fallen men WHILE THEY WERE YET SINNERS. No doubt about it. God also calls men to repentance and has throughout the ages. Men respond to this calling and receive their salvation, which is the full, ultimate final expression of the love of God.
There is no conflict here as far as God is concerned. All of this is reconciled in the infinite mercy grace and mind of God.
Look at the "we". They are those are the elect but not everyone.
These are the "we" - only those that "believeth" on Christ.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Notice that faith (belief) is given through the righteousness of God. It is not of ourselves
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The "we" and the 'us" are the elect, not everyone.
Look, we've been through this before and we agreed that we just see these issues differently, so, I don't see any
benefit in rehashing them now.
These are the "we" - only those that "believeth" on Christ.
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
[Rom 4:5 KJV] 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Notice that faith (belief) is given through the righteousness of God. It is not of ourselves
[2Pe 1:1 KJV] 1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
The "we" and the 'us" are the elect, not everyone.
Look, we've been through this before and we agreed that we just see these issues differently, so, I don't see any
benefit in rehashing them now.
wise words of wisdom my friend. But I can see why @cv5 refered to them as the enemy it's just like when Jesus commanded people calling him satan to get behind him this must have greatly hurt and confused Peter but Jesus was making a strong point here if your words are not of Christ then their of the devil and if we speak in the holy spirit that is because we have the word of life in us which is of God but words that bring death or don't give life are words from the devil
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Tell me this can mankind ever understand God? He is a wonder that is everlasting a mystery that entices the human spirit we could never begin to grasp the reality of I am. But we are called to bruing him to others to be so deeply intertwined with him that you can't tell the difference of the person or Jesus because they are so closely intertwined.
You doin't need doctrine you need the truth and Jesus is the truth that seems like a simple concept but it's not. Doctrine is a product of man and it leads from one path to another it divides and causes strife and yet it is written there is only one path to salvation one truth and it brings life wisdom and brings us closer to the reality of the kingdom but since doctrine has the opposite effect it isn't of God and I don't want anything not of God tainting my eyes and understanding of God
You doin't need doctrine you need the truth and Jesus is the truth that seems like a simple concept but it's not. Doctrine is a product of man and it leads from one path to another it divides and causes strife and yet it is written there is only one path to salvation one truth and it brings life wisdom and brings us closer to the reality of the kingdom but since doctrine has the opposite effect it isn't of God and I don't want anything not of God tainting my eyes and understanding of God
You could view it from the angle that one is presenting factual Scripture Evidence by the Bible being specific that Jesus died for the UNGODLY.
Or, you can view it from the person who says God died for the Elect when the Bible specifically claims Jesus [[DID NOT]] die for the Righteous.
You have a factually clear example of one stating the Bible factually and another ADDING to the Bible.
Therefore, only ONE is a Child of God and the other is a DECEIVER!
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Someone should link them to a Bible site,or buy them a Bible so they learn how wrong they are.
It's impossible to sustain such an argument. That eternal salvation is a license to sin.
Salvation is being redeemed from sins and being reborn as someone who is a new creation in Christ from that state of fallen sinner separated from God to being someone who is one with Christ.
The idea that state of grace gives the Christian the idea they can sin to their hearts content vacates the blessings of grace,and worse makes sovereign Omniscient God a collaborator in nullifying the point of salvation itself.
Hey! Maybe that's actually their point?
Yikes! If so.
It's impossible to sustain such an argument. That eternal salvation is a license to sin.
Salvation is being redeemed from sins and being reborn as someone who is a new creation in Christ from that state of fallen sinner separated from God to being someone who is one with Christ.
The idea that state of grace gives the Christian the idea they can sin to their hearts content vacates the blessings of grace,and worse makes sovereign Omniscient God a collaborator in nullifying the point of salvation itself.
Hey! Maybe that's actually their point?
Yikes! If so.
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And who among us is righteous? he did die for the ungoldly we were not born righteous none of us were any more ungodly than a sinner who loves the world he died for all because all is ungodly until they are born into kingdom
The elect are those who are made righteous by accepting his scarcifice and heading the call of the Lord. You don't factual evidence you just need the fact of what he did understanding doesn't come with how much we study or what verses we can pu;; from the bible to be fact it begins with the truth then he reveals truth after truth after truth ever growing deeper and stronger each time.
But your not going to get there if you are not heavenly minded the debate of this subject is pointless as it is, the kingdom is what we should be bringing to the table who cares who is in the right or wrong here what does it profit ?
You plant the seed whether that seed is recieved or not doesn't matter in the end if your seed is of the kingdom of God then that is what matters not the result that is his area of officw.
See you have kept brining it back to yourself you can't let this usbject go and all your getting is opposition and strife that should be a red flag that maybe this isn't of God and you should take a look at the whole picture here.
The elect are those who are made righteous by accepting his scarcifice and heading the call of the Lord. You don't factual evidence you just need the fact of what he did understanding doesn't come with how much we study or what verses we can pu;; from the bible to be fact it begins with the truth then he reveals truth after truth after truth ever growing deeper and stronger each time.
But your not going to get there if you are not heavenly minded the debate of this subject is pointless as it is, the kingdom is what we should be bringing to the table who cares who is in the right or wrong here what does it profit ?
You plant the seed whether that seed is recieved or not doesn't matter in the end if your seed is of the kingdom of God then that is what matters not the result that is his area of officw.
See you have kept brining it back to yourself you can't let this usbject go and all your getting is opposition and strife that should be a red flag that maybe this isn't of God and you should take a look at the whole picture here.
The fact is the Bible makes a clear statement. Either the Bible is True or it is not. If it is True then going by how the Holy Spirit had it written is the ONLY WAY we are to accept it.
It clearly states Jesus died for the UNGODLY and did not die for the Elect.
To reason it is Elect based upon deduction is not going by how the Holy Spirit wrote it.
Either we follow how God wrote it or we make it up out of Reason.
I go by how God wrote it.
If that goes against your Doctrine too bad!!
I totally respect you brother Blain, always have. I grew up in church and evangelism so maybe that's why I can agree with the heart of what you are saying but still be a stickler on certain points. You need doctrine, that is the truth of who Jesus is. They go hand in glove. Doctrine is not of man, it is the very foundation of what we believe, it's what separates us from heretical churches like JWs and Muslims etc. The Bible says learning, study of the Word is very important. And being at CC has helped me do that. So I appreciate your spirit and I hope you understand where I am coming from. Blessings.
speelcheck:
sadly, no
many name Christ but don't know Who He is, thinking of Him as only a man that did well, and thinking the gospel is a second chance to keep the Law -- but not even actually keeping the Law only the bits they think they can and dismiss the rest.
like "doing" can accomplish righteousness. as if.
have we not all read Romans?
did we not understand?
i really can't see how someone who thinks this way is really my sister or brother.
unless i presume them ignorant & uncapable --
which is something i do not presume my sisters and brothers to be. so.
maybe we share some things
but it sure doesn't make me think, "fam"
cousin maybe
and maybe that's all i can say -- that i just don't see it
sadly, no
many name Christ but don't know Who He is, thinking of Him as only a man that did well, and thinking the gospel is a second chance to keep the Law -- but not even actually keeping the Law only the bits they think they can and dismiss the rest.
like "doing" can accomplish righteousness. as if.
have we not all read Romans?
did we not understand?
i really can't see how someone who thinks this way is really my sister or brother.
unless i presume them ignorant & uncapable --
which is something i do not presume my sisters and brothers to be. so.
maybe we share some things
but it sure doesn't make me think, "fam"
cousin maybe
and maybe that's all i can say -- that i just don't see it
Example:
If we say Jesus died for the UNGODLY then we know that means every human being.
If we reason and say Jesus only died for the Elect then that [[doesn't]] mean everyone.
The Holy Spirit said UNGODLY which means God died for EVERYONE.
So to say Elect is calling God a LIAR!
NOW, DO YOU WANT TO BACK SOMEONE CALLING GOD A LIAR?
If we say Jesus died for the UNGODLY then we know that means every human being.
If we reason and say Jesus only died for the Elect then that [[doesn't]] mean everyone.
The Holy Spirit said UNGODLY which means God died for EVERYONE.
So to say Elect is calling God a LIAR!
NOW, DO YOU WANT TO BACK SOMEONE CALLING GOD A LIAR?
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No, Christ died for ALL. Here, read this and understand. You are twisting Scripture.
“Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned”
Who did death come to? ALL PEOPLE because ALL SINNED.
“But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many!” – Romans 5:15
The many died by the sin of Adam, the grace of Jesus overflows to who? The many. To ALL humans.
“That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.” – 1 Timothy 4:10
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” – 1 John 2:2
All people means just what it says. It's there in black and white.
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The holy spirit is in fact what you spoken and the word of God is what you have spoken but many seem to think they read it with the holy spirit and many claim it yet the fruit doesn't show that. The word of God is not cryptic it's not a code that only a few can understand you just have to see and really see
. The elect do not need him to die for them because the elect are the by product of Jesus saving the ungodly. Becoming an elect is not a god given right it is something earned the ungodly and the elect are not two seperate forces to be debated about it is us we were the ungodly and he died for us and when we take that and rise with him in faith we become the elect.
You can have all the facts but that doesn't mean you understand what is there
And it would be foolish to think we do because we go into the word of God but no one has been able to fully understand it some even don't understand it at all
We all have to be serious here we can't assume we understand what we are talking about no matter how solid it may seem after all even the devil knew the scriptures and tried to tempt Jesus with them.
You have be a blank slate and seek only the truth and accept nothing less no interpreation no reasoning no understanding you go into it with your eyes set on truth and truth alone then you will be given the eyes to see then the word of God has actual power and you see the bible as a whole now you see a dimension of scripture that lays behind a hidden wall and to get through that wall you have to be willing to drop everything and assume to know nothing.
This is not a one time thing either it is a ritual a daily activity with God
. The elect do not need him to die for them because the elect are the by product of Jesus saving the ungodly. Becoming an elect is not a god given right it is something earned the ungodly and the elect are not two seperate forces to be debated about it is us we were the ungodly and he died for us and when we take that and rise with him in faith we become the elect.
You can have all the facts but that doesn't mean you understand what is there
And it would be foolish to think we do because we go into the word of God but no one has been able to fully understand it some even don't understand it at all
We all have to be serious here we can't assume we understand what we are talking about no matter how solid it may seem after all even the devil knew the scriptures and tried to tempt Jesus with them.
You have be a blank slate and seek only the truth and accept nothing less no interpreation no reasoning no understanding you go into it with your eyes set on truth and truth alone then you will be given the eyes to see then the word of God has actual power and you see the bible as a whole now you see a dimension of scripture that lays behind a hidden wall and to get through that wall you have to be willing to drop everything and assume to know nothing.
This is not a one time thing either it is a ritual a daily activity with God