Doctrine of Unconditional Election

[VARob]

I refuted your anti-Biblical view with Scripture.

You used a common Calvinist proof-text. There are a few more, and maybe you'll bring them up too.

God is drawing everyone. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). He wants the wicked to turn from their evil ways so they might live (Eze 33:11). Anyone has the capacity to believe the gospel, which is why we are to teach it to people. We have the word of reconciliation committed to us. We are ambassadors for Christ, beseeching people in Christ's stead to be reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:18-20).

If Calvinism is true, being an ambassador for Christ is meaningless.

You have ad homs and repetitive knee jerk reactions to some medieval guy and his doctrines, even when some of them are shared across the majority of Christendom.

Yes, unfortunately Calvinism is a popular doctrine with some Christians (not the majority..).

 

[Magenta]

I'm not sure what you're asking? My reply was to brightfame52, who was replying to John146, who said that
to have grace, it needs to be received by the person, meaning I think, that the recipient has to do something
in order to get it - which I emphatically disagree with.

I asked, who defined God's grace that way. I really don't know how or why that is such a difficult question for you to understand. Is it Biblically described that way? Is it part of some doctrine? Or is it your own personal view? If you do nothing to receive it, is God's grace then forced on you? You don't have a choice? I have seen people say such things.

 

[Magenta]

You used a common Calvinist proof-text. There are a few more, and maybe you'll bring them up too.

God is drawing everyone. He wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9).


Yes, unfortunately Calvinism is a popular doctrine with some Christians (not the majority..).

Please read better. I did not say Calvinism itself. You (like many) are so overly attached to your knee jerk reactions, you are not even aware when you contradict yourself. I agree with the Scriptures you posted. I have designed panels with many of those verses featured.

 

[rogerg]

I asked, who defined God's grace that way. I really don't know how or why that is such a difficult question for you to understand. Is it Biblically described that way? Is it part of some doctrine? Or is it your own personal view? If you do nothing to receive it, is God's grace then forced on you? You don't have a choice? I have seen people say such things.

Perhaps if you made your questions a little more specific and clearer, they could be answered more easily.
Yes, God's grace covers through Christ, those whom He has chosen for it - it is not of their doing but God's.
Its ultimate effect is in their spiritual and mental conversion unto spiritual life from being dead in sin.
That is not my doctrine, it is the Bible's foundation.

 

[brightfame52]

Should we have to "receive" it, or do anything for it, then it can't be grace.

Correct. Its first given the elect in the purpose of God 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Then at the time appointed, the elect is given grace by the Spirit in their regeneration Jn 3:8 2 Thess 2:13 and its by this grace we believe Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

They will receive Grace at the coming of the Lord 1 Pet 1:13
Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ;

 

[VARob]

Please read better. I did not say Calvinism itself. You (like many) are so overly attached to your knee jerk reactions, you are not even aware when you contradict yourself. I agree with the Scriptures you posted. I have designed panels with many of those verses featured.

I try not to have "knee-jerk reactions," and I did not contradict myself.

Later, Magenta.

 

[Magenta]

I try not to have "knee-jerk reactions," and I did not contradict myself.

Later, Magenta.

Like I said you're not even aware when you contradict yourself. One minute you're saying God does not intervene, the next thing I know you're telling me that God is drawing all people to himself. Which is it?

 

[VARob]

Like I said you're not even aware when you contradict yourself. One minute you're saying God does not intervene, the next thing I know you're telling me that God is drawing all people to himself. Which is it?

God does not intervene in the Calvinist sense, enabling some people to believe, while ignoring other people, not enabling them to believe. The Calvinist belief is that God regenerates a person before they can believe, and then they WILL believe (irresistable grace). That's not true. People become regenerate when they decide to believe the gospel (Eph 1:13).

Hope that helps.

 

[brightfame52]

varob

God does not intervene in the Calvinist sense, enabling some people to believe, while ignoring other people, not enabling them to believe.

Actually He does. He intervenes in the lives of His Sheep, the Elect causing them to believe, and with the non elect He Judges them for their unbelief and sends them a strong delusion so they will believe a lie 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[John146]

varob



Actually He does. He intervenes in the lives of His Sheep, the Elect causing them to believe, and with the non elect He Judges them for their unbelief and sends them a strong delusion so they will believe a lie 2 Thess 2:10-12

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Verse 12 tells us why…they didn’t believe the truth so God will send them strong delusion that they might believe a lie.

 

[brightfame52]

Verse 12 tells us why…they didn’t believe the truth so God will send them strong delusion that they might believe a lie.

Nobody believes the Truth of God by nature. God gives His elect faith to believe when He saves them, but the non elect He hardens them in their unbelief. See God chooses to have mercy on some, others He choses to harden and destroy Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

 

[rogerg]

Verse 12 tells us why…they didn’t believe the truth so God will send them strong delusion that they might believe a lie.

Nope.
You stopped reading too soon.

[2Th 2:13-14 KJV]
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[John146]

Nobody believes the Truth of God by nature. God gives His elect faith to believe when He saves them, but the non elect He hardens them in their unbelief. See God chooses to have mercy on some, others He choses to harden and destroy Rom 9:18

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Thanks for giving your private interpretation.

 

[brightfame52]

Thanks for giving your private interpretation.

We will see at the Judgment wheter its was my private interpretation or the Truth of God which you obviously reject ! Because God does send some a strong delusion causing them to believe a lie, which He would not do to them He saves and gives them the knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

 

[John146]

We will see at the Judgment wheter its was my private interpretation or the Truth of God which you obviously reject ! Because God does send some a strong delusion causing them to believe a lie, which He would not do to them He saves and gives them the knowledge of the Truth 1 Tim 2:4

4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

God doesn’t arbitrarily send them strong delusion. He did so because when they heard the word of truth, they did not receive it.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.Why did they perish? Because they believed not the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Why did God send them strong delusion? For this cause, that points back at their not receiving the word of truth.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Why were they damned? Because they didn’t believe the word of truth.

 

[brightfame52]

God doesn’t arbitrarily send them strong delusion. He did so because when they heard the word of truth, they did not receive it.

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.Why did they perish? Because they believed not the truth.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: Why did God send them strong delusion? For this cause, that points back at their not receiving the word of truth.
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. Why were they damned? Because they didn’t believe the word of truth.

God sends them a strong delusion Justly because of unbelief . Yet all are born in the prison of unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So instead of God having mercy on them like He does the unbelieving elect, He sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie, and that to damn them.

 

[John146]

God sends them a strong delusion Justly because of unbelief . Yet all are born in the prison of unbelief Rom 11:32

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

So instead of God having mercy on them like He does the unbelieving elect, He sends them a strong delusion to believe a lie, and that to damn them.

Let's get the write words. Paul is talking about gospel privileges.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God (Gentiles), yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (Jews)
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (Mercy given to Gentiles)
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Same thing Paul said back in chapter 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

 

[brightfame52]

Let's get the write words. Paul is talking about gospel privileges.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God (Gentiles), yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (Jews)
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. (Mercy given to Gentiles)
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Same thing Paul said back in chapter 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;

Oh No its Salvation. Men by nature are imprisoned in unbelief. God chooses either to have mercy and save, or judge and condemn and harden, and cause men to believe a lie, so to damn them.

 

[Cameron143]

Oh No its Salvation. Men by nature are imprisoned in unbelief. God chooses either to have mercy and save, or judge and condemn and harden, and cause men to believe a lie, so to damn them.

God doesn't have to harden the natural man. He will, by his fallen nature, fit himself for destruction.

 

[John146]

Oh No its Salvation. Men by nature are imprisoned in unbelief. God chooses either to have mercy and save, or judge and condemn and harden, and cause men to believe a lie, so to damn them.

Ever read the book of Jonah? Most Calvinists dislike this story and change the simple reading of God's word to fit their narrative.