Is Michael Another Name For Jesus?

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

Furthermore,

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views”

"... Citing Hengstenberg, John A. Lees, in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, states: "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the 'child' and the archangel in Rev 12:1-17, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel."[15] …

… [15] "John A. Lees, "Michael" in James Orr (editor), ''The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia''(Eerdmans 1939)" ..." - Michael - Wikipedia %28archangel%29#Protestant views

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees.

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia; James Orr, M.A., D.D., General Editor; John L. Nuelsen, D.D., LL.D.; Edgar Y. Mullins, D.D., LL.D. Assistant Editors; Morris O. Evans, D.D., Ph.D., Managing Editor; Volume III. Heresy-Naarah; Chicago, The Howard-Severance Company, 1915.

"... [Page 12; Internally Page Preface IX] As General and Consulting Editor the Publishers secured the services of the Reverend Professor James Orr, D.D., of the United Free Church College, Glasgow, Scotland, and with him were conjoined as Associate Editors the Reverend President Edgar Y. Mullins, D.D., of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, Louisville, Kentucky, and the Reverend Bishop John L. Nuelsen, D.D., of the Methodist Episcopal Church, not of Zurich, Switzerland. The duties of Managing Editor were committed to the Reverend Morris O. Evans, D.D., of Cincinnati, Ohio; ... In all, nearly two hundred contributors, many of them scholars of the highest rank, have been employed upon this work during the past six years. Over one hundred of these contributors are residents of the United States, about sixty of Great Britain and Continental Europe, and the rest, of Canada, Syria, India, Australia, and other countries. Inspection of the Index of Contributors will show how largely all Churches in the respective countries are represented in this Encyclopedia. Anglicans, Baptists, Congregationalists, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, with those of still other communions ..." [Page 12; Internally Page Preface IX] - The International standard Bible encyclopedia : Orr, James, 1844-1913, ed : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

"... [Page 692; Internally Page 2047] Michael ... "who is like God?" ... (11) "The archangel" (Jude ver 9). Probably also the unnamed archangel of 1 Thess 4 16 is Michael. In the OT he is mentioned by name only in Dnl. He is "one of the chief princes" (Dnl 10 13), the "prince" of Israel (10 21), "the great prince" (12 1); perhaps also "the prince of the host" (8 11). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. ... [Page 692-693; Internally Page 2047-2048]

[Page 693; Internally Page 2048] … The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Rev 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Dnl (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn's BD). John A. Lees ..." [Pages 692-693; Internally Pages 2047-2048] - The International standard Bible encyclopedia : Orr, James, 1844-1913, ed : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
[URL unfurl="true"]https://archive.org/stream/cu31924095207126#page/n693/mode/1up[/URL]

Wikipedia is garabage because anyone with an non-scholary opinion can post on it. where diud htat speel chek go?

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm

One does not send themself.
"Jesus the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord"
Clearly, Jesus and angel of the Lord are in the same place, they are not the same person.

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

Walter said:

Hi Walter, I found this to start with:
"
A theophany is a manifestation of God in the Bible that is tangible to the human senses. In its most restrictive sense, it is a visible appearance of God in the Old Testament period, often, but not always, in human form. Some of the theophanies are found in these passages:

1. Genesis 12:7-9 – The Lord appeared to Abraham on his arrival in the land God had promised to him and his descendants.

2. Genesis 18:1-33 – One day, Abraham had some visitors: two angels and God Himself. He invited them to come to his home, and he and Sarah entertained them. Many commentators believe this could also be a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.

3. Genesis 32:22-30 – Jacob wrestled with what appeared to be a man, but was actually God (vv. 28-30). This may also have been a Christophany.

4. Exodus 3:2 - 4:17 – God appeared to Moses in the form of a burning bush, telling him exactly what He wanted him to do.

5. Exodus 24:9-11 – God appeared to Moses with Aaron and his sons and the seventy elders.

6. Deuteronomy 31:14-15 – God appeared to Moses and Joshua in the transfer of leadership to Joshua.

7. Job 38–42 – God answered Job out of the tempest and spoke at great length in answer to Job’s questions.

Frequently, the term “glory of the Lord” reflects a theophany, as in Exodus 24:16-18; the “pillar of cloud” has a similar function in Exodus 33:9. A frequent introduction for theophanies may be seen in the words “the Lord came down,” as in Genesis 11:5; Exodus 34:5; Numbers 11:25; and 12:5.

Some Bible commentators believe that whenever someone received a visit from “the angel of the Lord,” this was in fact the pre-incarnate Christ. These appearances can be seen in Genesis 16:7-14; Genesis 22:11-18; Judges 5:23; 2 Kings 19:35; and other passages. Other commentators believe these were in fact angelophanies, or appearances of angels. While there are no indisputable Christophanies in the Old Testament, every theophany wherein God takes on human form foreshadows the incarnation, where God took the form of a man to live among us as Emmanuel, “God with us” (Matthew 1:23). "
https://www.gotquestions.org/theophany-Christophany.html

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

Not all appearances of an Angel of the Lord is Jesus and God.
https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-of-the-Lord.html

"
"MINISTERING SPIRITS"
The Angel Of The Lord
INTRODUCTION

We have seen that there are many references to angels in the Old Testament...
1. The Hebrew word malak (found 103 times in the OT) simply means "messenger"
2. It can refer to a human messenger - e.g., 1Ki 19:2
3. It can refer to a divine messenger - Gen 28:12
4. 1. Supernatural or heavenly beings sent as messengers to men
  2. Agents who carry out the will of God - ISBE
In our previous survey of angels in the Old Testament...
1. We noted many references to "the Angel of the Lord" - e.g., Gen 16:10
2. Who speaks in the first person, as though it was the Lord Himself
3. You will note that some translations capitalize "Angel" (e.g., NKJV)
Who is "the Angel of the Lord"...?
1. "This phrase is especially employed to denote the Lord himself in that form in which he condescends to make himself manifest to man" - Barnes (commentary on Gen 16:10)
2. "It seems to denote some person of the Godhead in angelic form." - ibid.
-- Indeed, many believe that it was Jesus Christ, the Son of God in pre-incarnate form, sometimes called "the Angel of the Theophany"

[Could this be? What other explanations might there be? In answer to such questions, let's take a closer look at some of the...]

APPEARANCES OF THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
1. TO HAGAR...
2. 1. When she was in the wilderness - Gen 16:7-14
  2. The Angel speaks as though he was the LORD - Gen 16:10-12
  3. Note carefully Gen 16:13
  4. 1. It was "...the LORD who spoke to her"
    2. She called His name "You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees"
    3. She said "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"
3. TO ABRAHAM...
4. 1. When he was about to sacrifice Isaac - Gen 22:9-19
  2. The Angel speaks in the first person as though he were God
  3. 1. "you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." - Gen 22:12b
    2. "By Myself I have sworn, says the LORD...blessing I will bless you..." - Gen 22:15-18
5. TO MOSES...
6. 1. At Mount Sinai, in the burning bush - Exo 3:1-6
  2. The Angel identifies himself as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob - Exo 3:6
7. TO ISRAEL...
8. 1. The Angel of God led the Israelites out of Egypt - Exo 14:19; cf. Num 20:16
  2. God's angel led Israel through the wilderness - Exo 23:20-23; cf. Exo 32:34; 33:2
  3. 1. Note that God says "My Name is in Him"
    2. This angel was called "the angel of His presence" - Isa 63:9; cf. Exo 33:14-15
  4. [There are other examples where "the Angel of the Lord" speaks as the LORD in the first person (e.g., Num 22:32) or where the Angel and the LORD are described interchangeably (e.g., Judg 6:11-14). So, just who was "the Angel of the Lord"? Here are two...]
EXPLANATIONS FOR THE ANGEL OF THE LORD
1. AN ANGEL WITH A SPECIAL COMMISSION...
2. 1. Acting as God's representative or ambassador
  2. One problem some pose with this explanation: implied is the ability of the Angel of the Lord to forgive sin, something only God can do - cf. Exo 23:20-23
3. JESUS CHRIST, THE PRE-INCARNATE SON OF GOD...
4. 1. A kind of temporary pre-incarnation of the second person of the Godhead
  2. If the Angel of the Lord were the pre-Incarnate God the Son
  3. 1. Then the term 'Angel' would be taken in its root sense of Messenger'
    2. Making the pre-incarnate Word of God 'the Messenger of God'
  4. Evidence offered for this explanation
  5. 1. The Messiah to come is described as "the Messenger of the covenant" - Mal 3:1
    2. 1. So Jesus would be a "messenger" of the New Covenant
      2. Could He then have been a "messenger" (angel) during the Old Covenant?
    3. Paul reveals that Israel in the wilderness:
    4. 1. Was nourished by "that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ" - 1Co 10:1-4
      2. Tempted Christ - 1Co 10:9
      3. Which some take to be a reference to the Angel of the Lord, the Angel of His Presence - cf. Isa 63:9; Exo 33:14-15
  6. But if Jesus was "the Angel of the Lord" where so mentioned in the Old Testament...
  7. 1. He was the One sent to destroy Jerusalem after David's census - 2Sa 24:15-17; 1Ch 21:14-18,26-30
    2. He was the One who slew 185,000 men of the army of Assyria - 2Ki 19:35; 2Ch 32:20-22; Isa 37:36; cf. Isa 63:9
    3. Then again, Jesus is the One who will exercise judgment on those who know not God nor obey His gospel - cf. 2Th 1:7-9

CONCLUSION

Who was "the Angel Of The Lord"? I like what one wrote about the different explanations...
1. "Each has its difficulties, but the last (Jesus in pre-incarnate form) is certainly the most tempting to the mind. Yet it must be remembered that at best these are only conjectures that touch on a great mystery." - J. M. Wilson, ISBE
2. "It is certain that from the beginning God used angels in human form, with human voices, in order to communicate with man; and the appearances of the angel of the Lord, with his special redemptive relation to God's people, show the working of that Divine mode of self-revelation which culminated in the coming of the Savior, and are thus a foreshadowing of, and a preparation for, the full revelation of God in Jesus Christ." - ibid.
3. "Further than this, it is not safe to go." - ibid.
We can be thankful that whoever was "the Angel of the Lord"...
1. We have the fullness of God revealed in Jesus today - Col 2:9; cf. Jn 14:6-9
2. Jesus is indeed the "brightness of His glory and the express image of His person" - He 1:1-3

Unlike those in Old Testament times who may have wondered whether they had seen an angel or even God Himself, today we can know that in Jesus we see Deity as completely as humanly possible for us to comprehend!

Have we obeyed Him who "by Himself purged our sins"...? - cf. He 1:3

"
https://executableoutlines.com/topical_series/ministering-spirits-angels/angel_03.html

Chreck out his other outlines

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

angels of the Lord who were not the Son of God, are simply angels sent to earth with a specific mission.

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

The_Watchers_2017 said:

Note in his list: there is a statement with a partual quote.

Example I am making up. Daniel is "a woman" and Danille is "a man".

Here are some of his for examples in post #312 :

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”
Augustine of Hippo (AD 13 November 354 – AD 28 August 430) Jesus is the “Angel of the Testament”, etc

Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202) Jesus is the one that came down and spoke to the Patriarchs under the designation “Angel”.

Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria – Jesus is the “Angel of the Great Counsel”.

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165) – Jesus is called “Angel”, etc

Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, - Jesus is called the “Angel of the mighty counsel”.

This is the one I caught from looking at primary source.

"
Melito of Sardis (120-185 A.D.)

Melito of Sardis’ Fragments Ch. 4 “..our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love that this Being is perfect reason, the Word of God; He who was begotten before the light; He who is Creator together with the Father; He who is the Fashioner of man; He who is all in all; He who among the patriarchs is Patriarch; He who in the law is the Law; among the priests, Chief Priest; among kings, the Ruler; among prophets, the Prophet; among the angels, Archangel; in the voice of the preacher, the Word; among spirits, the Spirit; in the Father, the Son; in God, God; King for ever and ever. For this is He who was pilot to Noah; He who was guide to Abraham; He who was bound with Isaac; He who was in exile with Jacob; He who was sold with Joseph; He who was captain of the host with Moses; " https://answeringislamblog.wordpres...hurch-father-quotes-on-the-angel-of-the-lord/

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

https://answeringislamblog.wordpres...hurch-father-quotes-on-the-angel-of-the-lord/ has many of the full paragraphs of the partual quotes. Simply use <ctrl> F with the highlighted quote to find the misquoted paragraphs. You can also google newadvent.org with his partual quote to find the text that is misquoted in its complete document context.

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

"And a little after he says of Him, in the person of God, My covenant was with Him of life and peace: and I gave to Him that He might fear me with fear, and be afraid before my name. The law of truth was in His mouth: directing in peace He has walked with me, and has turned many away from iniquity. For the Priest's lips shall keep knowledge, and they shall seek the law at His mouth: for He is the Angel of the Lord Almighty. Malachi 2:5-7 Nor is it to be wondered at that Christ Jesus is called the Angel of the Almighty God. For just as He is called a servant on account of the form of a servant in which He came to men, so He is called an angel on account of the evangel which He proclaimed to men. For if we interpret these Greek words, evangel is good news, and angel is messenger. Again he says of Him, Behold I will send mine angel, and He will look out the way before my face: and the Lord, whom you seek, shall suddenly come into His temple, even the Angel of the testament, whom you desire. Behold, He comes, says the Lord Almighty, and who shall abide the day of His entry, or who shall stand at His appearing? Malachi 3:1-2 In this place he has foretold both the first and second advent of Christ: the first, to wit, of which he says, And He shall come suddenly into His temple; that is, into His flesh, of which He said in the Gospel, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up again. John 2:19 And of the second advent he says, Behold, He comes, says the Lord Almighty, and who shall abide the day of His entry, or who shall stand at His appearing? But what he says, The Lord whom you seek, and the Angel of the testament whom you desire, just means that even the Jews, according to the Scriptures which they read, shall seek and desire Christ. But many of them did not acknowledge that He whom they sought and desired had come, being blinded in their hearts, which were preoccupied with their own merits. Now what he here calls the testament, either above, where he says, My testament had been with Him, or here, where he has called Him the Angel of the testament, we ought, beyond a doubt, to take to be the new testament, in which the things promised are eternal, and not the old, in which they are only temporal. Yet many who are weak are troubled when they see the wicked abound in such temporal things, because they value them greatly, and serve the true God to be rewarded with them. " https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/120118.htm

It is my understanding of the text that the Angel of the testament and Jesus are seperate beings. What is your understand everyone else, in case I am misreading it while on pain killers?

bluto · Jan 27, 2023

Walter said:

Hello Leaner, I just went through a search for this information in the scriptures:

On a few occasions in the Old Testament period, the angel of the LORD could have been Jesus Himself. The Bible also says the angel of the LORD appeared in New Testament times. What is his identity there?

Matthew

The angel of the LORD appeared to Joseph and foretold the birth of Jesus.

But just when he had resolved to do these things, the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife, for the child conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. She will bear a son, and you are to name Him Jesus, for He Himself will save His people from their sins" (Matthew 1:20,21).

In this context the angel is not identified.

Identified With Gabriel

Luke, however, identifies the angel of the LORD as Gabriel.

And there appeared unto him [Zechariah] the angel of the LORD standing on the right side of altar of incense (Luke 1:11).

The angel replied, "I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news (Luke 1:19).

Therefore, in this particular case, the angel of the LORD could not have been Christ.

After The Birth Of Christ

The angel of the LORD also appeared to Joseph after Jesus had been born. He warned Joseph that Herod was about to kill the child.

Now after they had left, behold the angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Get up, take the child and His mother, and escape to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy Him" (Matthew 2:13).

He also spoke to Joseph after Herod had died. The angel told him that his family could return from Egypt.

When Herod died, the angel of the LORD suddenly appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt and said, "Get up, take the child and His mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the child's life are dead" (Matthew 2:19,20).

Since Jesus had already been born, it is not possible that He could be both the young child, and the angel of the LORD, at the same time. Therefore the angel, or messenger, of the LORD in this context, was someone else.

Delivered Peter

The angel of the LORD helped Peter escape from jail.

Suddenly the angel of the LORD appeared and a light shone in the cell. He touched Peter on the side and woke him, saying, "Get up quickly." And the chains fell off his hands (Acts 12:7).

Killed Herod

The angel of the LORD is the one who put the evil king Herod to death.

And immediately, because he had not given the glory to God, the angel of the LORD struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died (Acts 12:23).

Though the angel of the LORD is not identified in these instances, there is nothing to suggest that the he was the LORD Himself.

Gabriel

The most likely candidate for the angel of the LORD in the New Testament is Gabriel. When the angel of the LORD appeared to Zechariah to announce the birth of John the Baptist, he identified himself as Gabriel. Though we are not specifically told the identity of this angel of the LORD in the other New Testament contexts, it is consistent to identify him with the angel Gabriel.

Summary

While the angel of the LORD may have been Jesus Christ making temporary appearances on certain occasions in the Old Testament, it certainly was not the same person appearing during the New Testament era. On two different occasions when the angel of the LORD appeared to Joseph, Jesus had already been born. Obviously it could not have been Him. This tells us that the phrase "angel of the LORD" either speaks of more than one person, or that the same person was involved in all the appearances under the title "angel of the LORD." If this is the case, then it could not have been the Lord Jesus in those Old Testament appearances, since it was not He who appeared under this title during the New Testament period. Since Gabriel is identified as the angel of the LORD in Luke, we should probably assume that it is he who appears in other contexts in the New Testament, but is not named.

Love, Walter

Oh Walter, your still mixed up on this issue of the angel of the Lord. I have a couple of questions for you and hopefully they might clear things up. You quoted a number of verses so let me start with Acts 12:7. On what basis did you come to the conclusion that the angel who helped Peter is "specifically" the angel of the Lord, the preincarnate Jesus Christ?

The same question goes for Matthew 1:20, Matthew 28:2 and how about at Acts 5:19, or Acts 8:26? I could give other verses but let's just stich with the few I referenced. So again, how do you in these verses it's specifically "the angel of the Lord" who appeared for first time as the angel of the Lord at Genesis 16:7? I'm going to take it slow with you.

IN THE ANGEL OF THE LORD,
bluto

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

I cited the original document, not an "SDA cource". It is uploaded to Internet Archive.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...er-name-for-jesus.209360/page-13#post-5005106

Why misrepresent? Only two things, [1] You are mistaken and ignorant of your mistake, simply not reading what I shared specifically with you, overlooking what I wrote in detail, [2] you are lying. Which it is, I leave with you.

Here it is again:

[1] Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180) was the bishop of Sardis near Smyrna in western Anatolia.

Cureton's Spicilegium Syriacum, contaning remains of Bardeson, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes, by the Rev. William Cureton, M.A. F.R.S. Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen, Rector of St. Margaret's, and Canon of Westminster. London: Francis and John Rivington, St. Paul's Churchyard and Waterloo Place. 1855.

"... [Page 53] From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.

We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patriarch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God- the king forever and ever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses; who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem, (33) who was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherd, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by [Page 53-54] Judas, who was laid hold on by the priests, who was condemned by Pilate, who was transfixed in the flesh, who was hanged upon the tree, who was buried in the earth, who rose from the dead, who appeared to the Apostles, who ascended to heaven, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, who is the rest of those that are departed, the recoverer of those who were lost, the light of those who are in darkness, the deliverer of those who are captives, the guide of those who have gone astray, the refuge of the afflicted, the bridegroom of the Church, the charioteer of the Cherubim, the captain of the angels, God who is of God, the Son who is of the Father, Jesus Christ, the King for ever and ever. Amen. ..." [Pages 53-54] - https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/53/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/54/mode/1up

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

You have it reversed. I never said that "messenger" always means "angel", for it could mean "apostle", etc.

The word "angel" always means "messenger", but thanks for playing. Here's your prize.

Ex. 23:4-5.

Inquisitor · Jan 27, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

Was Jesus actually God?

John 14:8
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you for so long a time, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip?
The one who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

I wonder which of the angels would utter that verse.

"The one who has seen Me has seen the Father"

John 5:23
So that all will honor the Son just as they honor the Father. The one who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

They both have equal honor!

Jesus has the same name as the Father.

John 17:11
I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are.

The only God in the Old and New Testaments was the creator.

The Father is unknown in the Old and New Testaments.

No one has ever seen the Father.

No one has ever heard the Father speak.

No one has ever known the Father.

Everything was created through Jesus and for Jesus.

We exist only for Jesus.

Jesus walked with Adam and Eve!

TheLearner · Jan 27, 2023

ItsAdventageous said:

I cited the original document, not an "SDA cource". It is uploaded to Internet Archive.

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...er-name-for-jesus.209360/page-13#post-5005106

Why misrepresent? Only two things, [1] You are mistaken and ignorant of your mistake, simply not reading what I shared specifically with you, overlooking what I wrote in detail, [2] you are lying. Which it is, I leave with you.

Here it is again:

[1] Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180) was the bishop of Sardis near Smyrna in western Anatolia.

Cureton's Spicilegium Syriacum, contaning remains of Bardeson, Meliton, Ambrose and Mara Bar Serapion. Now first edited, with an English translation and notes, by the Rev. William Cureton, M.A. F.R.S. Chaplain in Ordinary to the Queen, Rector of St. Margaret's, and Canon of Westminster. London: Francis and John Rivington, St. Paul's Churchyard and Waterloo Place. 1855.

"... [Page 53] From Meliton the Bishop; On Faith.

We have made collections from the Law and the Prophets relative to those things which have been declared respecting our Lord Jesus Christ, that we may prove to your love, that He is perfect reason, the Word of God; who was begotten before the light; who was Creator together with the Father; who was the fashioner of man; who was all in all; who among the Patriarchs was Patriarch; who in the law was the Law; among the priests Chief priest; amongst kings Governor; among prophets the Prophet; among the angels Archangel; in the Voice the Word; among spirits Spirit; in the Father the Son; in God God- the king forever and ever. For this was He who was pilot to Noah; who conducted Abraham; who was bound with Isaac, who was in exile with Jacob, who was sold with Joseph, who was captain with Moses; who was the divider of the inheritance with Jesus the Son of Nun, who in David and the prophets foretold his own sufferings, who was incarnate in the Virgin, who was born at Bethlehem, (33) who was wrapped in swaddling clothes in the manger, who was seen of the shepherd, who was glorified of the angels, who was worshipped of the Magi, who was pointed out by John, who assembled the Apostles, who preached the kingdom, who healed the maimed, who gave light to the blind, who raised the dead, who appeared in the temple, who was not believed on by the people, who was betrayed by [Page 53-54] Judas, who was laid hold on by the priests, who was condemned by Pilate, who was transfixed in the flesh, who was hanged upon the tree, who was buried in the earth, who rose from the dead, who appeared to the Apostles, who ascended to heaven, who sitteth on the right hand of the Father, who is the rest of those that are departed, the recoverer of those who were lost, the light of those who are in darkness, the deliverer of those who are captives, the guide of those who have gone astray, the refuge of the afflicted, the bridegroom of the Church, the charioteer of the Cherubim, the captain of the angels, God who is of God, the Son who is of the Father, Jesus Christ, the King for ever and ever. Amen. ..." [Pages 53-54] - https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/53/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/spicilegiumsyria00cureuoft#page/54/mode/1up

I already posted those pages, they did not teach Jesus is Michael.
Also, I highlighted your quotes, and did the search on google which goes to SDA webpages with the quote and conclusion just like you had.

God Bless, Brother, friend
Cookie Moster's unite
Daniel

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

'outdated'? Wow. You really are desperate to be rid of the truth staring you in the face. They are historical sources, in a chain of evidence going all the way back to the post-apostolic (12 apostles) era, citing the OT and NT themselves in evidence.

So, by your 'logic', the OT and NT are 'outdated' as well, since all of those sources cite the same texts from scripture, and generally give the same reasons (with slight variations) for their conclusions.

"Mrs. White's library" indeed.

I spent two months (nearly 20 hrs a day) digging through archives online for those sources, and manually hand typed, every single one, in those languages given.

Here's your prize,

Pro. 12:15.

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

Try reading everything I posted in it's original context by the very source links I provided.

Here's your prize,

Isa. 56:10.

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

Yes, they do, not directly, but indirectly, and I already shared that with you.

Even if you still refuse evidence in front of you, as you continually have, it still directly says that Jesus, "among the angels, archangel". This demonstrates two things directly, and a third indirectly, by Melito.

[1] Jesus is classified, by Melito, as "among the angels". This signifies one of the Son's offices, as messenger, like all the other messengers of God, called "angels", and the Son is "among" them.

[2] Jesus is classified, by Melito, "archangel". This signifies one of the Son's offices, not only as messenger, but chief messenger, and chief over other messengers of the Father.

Those are direct teachings by Melito.

[3] Melito does not identify the Son as Gabriel, or Lucifer, who are the other archangels mentioned in scripture, and thus Melito's reference to the Son being "archangel" can only refer to those texts which mention the word in scripture, namely 1 Thes. 4:6; Jude 1:9, which reference in Jude is to "Michael", the "archangel" who battles the devil, over the body of Moses, for a resurrection. The other reference in 1 Thes. 4:16 and the "archangel" there is to "Christ" (Jesus), another title/designation and office of the Son.

If you choose to not see these things, or pubically acknowledge these things, for fear, then here is your prize:

Mark. 4:40.

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

Inquisitor said:

You are mistaken.

“...but surely, as it is written, “No man has seen God...”, Right?”

Here are the texts:

Exodus 33:20 KJB - And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1 Timothy 6:16 KJB - Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

1 John 4:12 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:20 KJB - If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

When considering such texts, the immediate context and the whole King James Bible context should be considered more carefully, for instance:

John 1:18 KJB - No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Please notice that John 1:18's KJB reference to “God” is speaking of the person of “the Father”, and yet even so, the text explicitly states that “the only begotten Son” is the person who appeared and “declared” God, the Father, and those who accepted Christ Jesus, have seen the character of God, the Father. John, even repeats this in John 6:46 KJB:

John 6:46 KJB - Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Please notice, that even John 6:46 KJB is not all 'exclusive' of men having seen God, the Father, but explicitly gives the exception [“save he”] by saying, “save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.” All in Christ Jesus, have indeed seen the Father, meaning His character, for Jesus said:

Matthew 11:27 KJB - All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

John 14:7 KJB - If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

John 14:8 KJB - Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

John 14:9 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

Hebrews 1:1 KJB - God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

Hebrews 1:2 KJB - Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

In Exodus 33:20 KJB, the context reveals that Moses was not allowed to see the “face” of God in the fullness of His Glory, as in Exodus 33:23 KJB, so God hid Moses in the cleft of a rock, and passed by him, placing His hand over him, and Moses saw the back parts of God.

It is those who are not in Christ Jesus that have not seen God, the Father, since they have rejected His character in the person of His Son:

John 5:37 KJB - And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

John 5:43 KJB - I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

3 John 1:11 KJB - Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Various persons of the Old Testament [Genesis to Malachi] and of the New Testament [Matthew to Revelation] have seen and heard God, especially the Son, but even a few prophets have seen and heard the Father [in vision], and some have seen and heard the Holy Spirit in various forms:

Having seen, heard and experienced the Father in various ways:

Daniel the prophet (Daniel 7:9,10,13):

Daniel 7:9 KJB - I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

Daniel 7:10 KJB - A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

Daniel 7:13 KJB - I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

John the Baptist, and others (Matthew 3:17, 17:5,6; Mark 1:11, 9:7; Luke 3:22, 9:35,36)

Stephen (Acts 7:55)

Peter, James and John the Apostles (2 Peter 1:17-18)

John the Apostle and prophet (Revelation 4:2-11, 5:,7,13,14)

ItsAdventageous · Jan 27, 2023

TheLearner said:

Wikipedia is not always garbage. I cited it, with the references given, and then cited the original reference confirming that what was cited by wikipedia, was correct in the portion given.

You cite 'Got Questions' (continually, like as if it were the infallible statement of scripture) and it is riddled with errors (and refuses to be corrected, unlike Wikipedia, can be and often is), entirely biased (see their "About page"), and Jesuit influenced (they teach Jesuit Futurism).

Here's your prize:

Job 15:34.

Inquisitor · Jan 27, 2023