Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Not sure what this has to do with the David post. I'm saying we must leave the judging to God for those that appear to have left the faith. Any supposed Christian that preaches that you can sin all you want, absolutely is not speaking for God or Scripture.
The overarching points are:
1. True, born again children of God cannot continue in willful, unrepentant sin without experiencing the discipline of God to get them to repent, up to, and including physical death by giving their flesh over to satan, and the consequences of their sin. But they remain saved children.
2. When you hear and receive the Gospel, you are filled, sealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit as a Born Again NEW Creation. You cannot be UNborn, supposedly spiritually die because of unrepentant sin, and then become Born again, again. Just how many times can you become born again, die and born again, again?
Correct. That's why Jesus came and died, and was resurrected in the 1st place.
Although in a technical sense I would say this is correct, it is the WRONG message to deliver, and I see no Spiritual value in saying this. The Holy Spirit does a Sanctifying work in us to transform us more and more into the likeness of Jesus. We should NEVER put ourselves in the thought process of " Man! I wish I was as holy as that guy ahead of me! But thank God I'm not doing as bad as the guy back there!" But I understand the point he is making to avoid that thought process.
ABSOLUTELY, 100% Correct! However, God prepared us to do works as the opportunity presents itself. And we will likely feel closer to Him as we grow by doing those works. BUT, doing them has ZERO to do with our Salvation. ONLY the work JESUS did matters there.
I don't know who Sam Morris is but, Again, this is a very bad thing to say to a congregation.
If my Pastor said words to this effect, he would become my EX Pastor, even if on a technical level it may be right. It only serves to confuse, and possibly even enable baby Christians into things they shouldn't be doing.
The overarching points are:
1. True, born again children of God cannot continue in willful, unrepentant sin without experiencing the discipline of God to get them to repent, up to, and including physical death by giving their flesh over to satan, and the consequences of their sin. But they remain saved children.
2. When you hear and receive the Gospel, you are filled, sealed, and empowered by the Holy Spirit as a Born Again NEW Creation. You cannot be UNborn, supposedly spiritually die because of unrepentant sin, and then become Born again, again. Just how many times can you become born again, die and born again, again?
Correct. That's why Jesus came and died, and was resurrected in the 1st place.
Although in a technical sense I would say this is correct, it is the WRONG message to deliver, and I see no Spiritual value in saying this. The Holy Spirit does a Sanctifying work in us to transform us more and more into the likeness of Jesus. We should NEVER put ourselves in the thought process of " Man! I wish I was as holy as that guy ahead of me! But thank God I'm not doing as bad as the guy back there!" But I understand the point he is making to avoid that thought process.
ABSOLUTELY, 100% Correct! However, God prepared us to do works as the opportunity presents itself. And we will likely feel closer to Him as we grow by doing those works. BUT, doing them has ZERO to do with our Salvation. ONLY the work JESUS did matters there.
I don't know who Sam Morris is but, Again, this is a very bad thing to say to a congregation.
If my Pastor said words to this effect, he would become my EX Pastor, even if on a technical level it may be right. It only serves to confuse, and possibly even enable baby Christians into things they shouldn't be doing.
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Once Saved Always Saved and or Our Faith Justified By Works ... I have heard the contention over these doctrines since God first made me aware of His presence nearly 48 years ago; and must admit I probably held onto them as if I too was meant to one day grasp whether there was an answer to their validity. But when roughly ten years ago God finally broke through all my brokenness to reveal the magnitude of His Love, and that as the Apostle John relays to us that God IS LOVE and LIGHT with no darkness whatsoever, I realized that if I saw God's Glory as I was meant to see God, and relinquished my will over to His Love and Light, that any works that might be produced through my earthly vessel through the faith He called us to concerning His Love and Light, was accomplished due to God's Spirit through me and not of myself other than that I held to the faith that God was what God said He was and would reward as He promised. I saw that my mind ought never be on the works themselves but on the obedience my faith called me to do as God bid me to do, because God is what God says He is. Whatever the significance is of my eternal salvation or the works accomplished in obedience through this earthly vessel for me is and must always be secondary to my constant vision remaining on God and what God is, that all glory remain there, frankly eliminating any concern for me whether we need to concern ourselves about our being once saved always saved or whether my works are any justification of my faith, as I choose to remain blinded by His Glory and find His will for my life in that faith and the strength to be obedient to that. Granted I have not found the strength as I would have hoped, but God is good to ever lead me to finding it.
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I would give that person this passage
speakin g of ongoing habitual sin. or a sinful lifestyle. living in the world
1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
speakin g of ongoing habitual sin. or a sinful lifestyle. living in the world
1 John 3: 4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
If I heard the above from either of them I would remind them of the following
Romans 5:20 - 6:2
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
If they still hold and teach or walk in it then I would wipe the dust of my feet and leave it up to God to deal with.
It would seem that they do not understand the gospel and what Jesus has done for.
There is nothing that can save outside of our faith in the risen lord Jesus.
That is repenting of our sin of unbelief in him.
John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Romans 10:8-12
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
Romans 5:20 - 6:2
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more,
21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Dead to Sin, Alive to God
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?
If they still hold and teach or walk in it then I would wipe the dust of my feet and leave it up to God to deal with.
It would seem that they do not understand the gospel and what Jesus has done for.
There is nothing that can save outside of our faith in the risen lord Jesus.
That is repenting of our sin of unbelief in him.
John 16:7-9
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.
8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
Romans 10:8-12
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
Ephesians 2:8-10
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
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exactly. so in my view anyway. To use them as an example is not applicable. because no one really knows..
I know what John says.. but the person saying it did not confess of doing those things. so it would not apply.. John did say however. A child of God could not go on living in sin that way.. so we can try to decipher what that means.
I know what John says.. but the person saying it did not confess of doing those things. so it would not apply.. John did say however. A child of God could not go on living in sin that way.. so we can try to decipher what that means.
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Salvation through faith (rightly understood in Christ alone) implies that we are saved when we place our faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation and not in works. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) This often gets confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains alone - "barren of works." (James 2:14-24)
There are many passages of scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture above in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
There are many passages of scripture which make it clear that we are saved through belief/faith "apart from additions or modifications." (John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 6:40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; 26:18; Romans 1:16; 3:22-28; 4:5; 5:1; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8; Philippians 3:9; 2 Timothy 3:15; 1 John 5:13 etc..).
You don't need to add the word "alone" next to "belief/faith" in each of these passages of scripture above in order to figure out that the words, "belief/faith" stand alone in connection with receiving eternal life/salvation. Do these many passages of scripture say belief/faith "plus something else?" Plus works? NO. So then it's faith (rightly understood) in Christ alone.
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I disagree with that completely.
I’ll defer to James’ pretense in James 2:14
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?”
James’ question is plain. Can faith save someone. Then he proceeds to answer this question.
James goes on to talk about Abraham:
21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
This relates to Romans 4 where Abraham was justified by faith. Those who are of the faith of Abraham are saved:
Romans 4
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
The faith of Abraham was faith and works.
Do you have the faith of Abraham?
Are you beginning to see why Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven?
I’ll defer to James’ pretense in James 2:14
“What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith, but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?”
James’ question is plain. Can faith save someone. Then he proceeds to answer this question.
James goes on to talk about Abraham:
21Was not our father Abraham justified by what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
24As you can see, a man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
This relates to Romans 4 where Abraham was justified by faith. Those who are of the faith of Abraham are saved:
Romans 4
16Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may rest on grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.
The faith of Abraham was faith and works.
Do you have the faith of Abraham?
Are you beginning to see why Jesus said that only those who do the will of the Father will enter the kingdom of heaven?
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Well were still not talking about this huh. Oh we touch it but never deal with it. The OP's post... Take John 10:28 " However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation." If were playing that game then one can say you are also "no one" so even you can't take your self from His hand. There we go down some rabbet hole talking debating something that was never said.
We read "fall away" 5 times in the ops post. So if someone comes up to me asking hey you know Jesus? I say "no never heard of him" and I swore and say it again and again. This is ok.. you can do this and your still saved since Peter did means we all can do that huh. But those say in Iran or China seeing people that believe in Jesus get killed in more ways then we want to talk about. If they turn around lie they are lost forever right? What this is really coming down to is some tell us what "fall away" really means. Yet the fact its still up for debate in some scriptures which oddly must not be known since its left out.
Take 2 Peter 2:20-21. We notice it starts off with "if after they". Something comes before this. Jesus made the statement about a man unclean spirit "the last state of that man is worse then the first." That spirit comes back 7 times worse. Just saying this I remember when the lord told me this to say to my best friend. I was at that time never thinking about any of these verses. The lord told me to tell me "if you do not change it will be 7 times worse". Was never about salvation. See he came to me asking for help the lord delivered him. Its clear now why He had me say that. He knew what was coming yet warned him.
Similarly believers who through acknowledging Jesus Christ as lord and Saviour have escaped from worldly pollutions (miasmata, defilement, uncleanness) if they should become entangled again in those pollutions and be conquered be them will plunge into sin more deeply then before they were saved and be more helpless to free themselves from its grip. Entangled is emplakentes meaning entwine involve. Its the word used by braiding or plaiting the hair a very deliberate process and indicates their former immoral lives is not a rash act but a willful choice on their part. Matt/Heb/1 Tim.. blah blah blah. One could add to the start of this (2 Peter 2) "false teachers".. anyway. So what I shared is what I understand and is not gospel truth.
For me to willingly sin which we all have at times. What He was taking about is you know the sin is wrong and you don't care and you never repent. Yeah we do things all the time and even know it yet that's the flesh but when He comes that sweet holy Spirit we feel convicted we always repent and never want to do it again yet we do. Its not who you are any more. Paul told us. We have grace yet that does not mean we can freely sin and we know those that truly know Christ do not willingly freely sin and never repent. There are those that are blind live in sin take gay believers. Lost are they? There sin is what one of the top 5 worse sins but that little lie we told or those wicked thoughts or unforgiveness oooh heres on. We drive and see the sign showing 65/75 and we go past it. Thats a sin you know? That stop sign says stop we all know what it means do we? Haha its funny yet not how much we sin yet we tell our selfs what is not sin. Some book tv show that has things in it we know the word of God is against yet its ok for us its not sin huh.
Some do not get all the rewards. So we see we are all working out our own salvation. Some just want others to obey what they believe some would look at it as being controlling. I don't ever think about OSAS or I can lose my salvation. See I am a Child of the kingdom a citizen of the Kingdom period.
We read "fall away" 5 times in the ops post. So if someone comes up to me asking hey you know Jesus? I say "no never heard of him" and I swore and say it again and again. This is ok.. you can do this and your still saved since Peter did means we all can do that huh. But those say in Iran or China seeing people that believe in Jesus get killed in more ways then we want to talk about. If they turn around lie they are lost forever right? What this is really coming down to is some tell us what "fall away" really means. Yet the fact its still up for debate in some scriptures which oddly must not be known since its left out.
Take 2 Peter 2:20-21. We notice it starts off with "if after they". Something comes before this. Jesus made the statement about a man unclean spirit "the last state of that man is worse then the first." That spirit comes back 7 times worse. Just saying this I remember when the lord told me this to say to my best friend. I was at that time never thinking about any of these verses. The lord told me to tell me "if you do not change it will be 7 times worse". Was never about salvation. See he came to me asking for help the lord delivered him. Its clear now why He had me say that. He knew what was coming yet warned him.
Similarly believers who through acknowledging Jesus Christ as lord and Saviour have escaped from worldly pollutions (miasmata, defilement, uncleanness) if they should become entangled again in those pollutions and be conquered be them will plunge into sin more deeply then before they were saved and be more helpless to free themselves from its grip. Entangled is emplakentes meaning entwine involve. Its the word used by braiding or plaiting the hair a very deliberate process and indicates their former immoral lives is not a rash act but a willful choice on their part. Matt/Heb/1 Tim.. blah blah blah. One could add to the start of this (2 Peter 2) "false teachers".. anyway. So what I shared is what I understand and is not gospel truth.
For me to willingly sin which we all have at times. What He was taking about is you know the sin is wrong and you don't care and you never repent. Yeah we do things all the time and even know it yet that's the flesh but when He comes that sweet holy Spirit we feel convicted we always repent and never want to do it again yet we do. Its not who you are any more. Paul told us. We have grace yet that does not mean we can freely sin and we know those that truly know Christ do not willingly freely sin and never repent. There are those that are blind live in sin take gay believers. Lost are they? There sin is what one of the top 5 worse sins but that little lie we told or those wicked thoughts or unforgiveness oooh heres on. We drive and see the sign showing 65/75 and we go past it. Thats a sin you know? That stop sign says stop we all know what it means do we? Haha its funny yet not how much we sin yet we tell our selfs what is not sin. Some book tv show that has things in it we know the word of God is against yet its ok for us its not sin huh.
Some do not get all the rewards. So we see we are all working out our own salvation. Some just want others to obey what they believe some would look at it as being controlling. I don't ever think about OSAS or I can lose my salvation. See I am a Child of the kingdom a citizen of the Kingdom period.
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I read this far and noticed you defined terms on what you can do i didn't need to read any further, if we take things back and look at Jesus this verse ends all the debate
(Jude 1 :25) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (26) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Eyes on Jesus
Thread done........Mic Drop......
(Jude 1 :25) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, (26) To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.
Eyes on Jesus
Thread done........Mic Drop......
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Romans 11:20-23 KJV
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: [21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. [22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. [23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
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