Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[cv5]

Here is some context for you. From way waaaay back.....

Rom 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Major crisis. Exactly 7001 true worshippers remaining. And it would seem that if God had NOT INTERVENED, Elijah would have been raptured and there would have been NONE left in Israel.

1Ki 19:14
And he said, “I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”

1Ki 19:18
“Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Isa 1:9
Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.

Rom 9:27
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Rom 9:28
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”

Rom 9:29
And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

The point being that God Himself is PRO-ACTIVELY intervening on behalf of fallen men. And there is every reason to believe that He absolutely must.....or no one would be saved. But this is only speculation on my part.

In the OT, God intervened way back in Genesis 3 to begin with.

And truth be told, the NT indicates (beyond refutation) that God intervenes on behalf of each and every individual that constitutes the Church IN ETERNITY PAST before the foundation of the world, before we were ever born.

BTW...a child has absolutely nothing to do with his own birth. I find it extremely unlikely that the redeemed of the Father have anything to do with their rebirth either. But I would not impose this supposition upon anyone as doctrine.

 

[John146]

Not convinced.

Agree, He was always obedient.

In your view did He have to go to the cross and rise from the dead?

Yes, it was his Father's will and he always did his Father's will.

 

[John146]

The point being that God Himself is PRO-ACTIVELY intervening on behalf of fallen men. And there is every reason to believe that He absolutely must.....or no one would be saved. But this is only speculation on my part.

In the OT, God intervened way back in Genesis 3 to begin with.

And truth be told, the NT indicates (beyond refutation) that God intervenes on behalf of each and every individual that constitutes the Church IN ETERNITY PAST before the foundation of the world, before we were ever born.

BTW...a child has absolutely nothing to do with his own birth. I find it extremely unlikely that the redeemed of the Father have anything to do with their rebirth either. But I would not impose this supposition upon anyone as doctrine.

By this thought, we could never had been a child of wrath as scripture states. By your thought, God's wrath was never upon us because he had already chosen us.

 

[PennEd]

Yes, that is what I see the Bible teaching.

Thank you for replying:

Here is what the Bible teaches in regard to you leaving Jesus.

WE, are not only in HIM, but HE also lives in US!

Here are just a few examples:

Galatians 2:20—“It is Christ who lives in me”
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for me.”
Colossians 1:27—“Christ in you”
“To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which isChrist in you, the hope of glory.”


So by necessity, Jesus would have to leave and abandon you in order for you to lose your salvation.

Obviously Scripture teaches otherwise. I pray you re-evaluate your position on this.

 

[cv5]

By this thought, we could never had been a child of wrath as scripture states. By your thought, God's wrath was never upon us because he had already chosen us.

Not sure what you mean.....but God's wrath is not upon the elect believers constituting the Body the Bride the Church.

 

[posthuman]

Imagine if Jesus didn’t have faith

I'm trying to imagine what context it could possibly make sense to say omniscient God "has faith"??

faith in Who? Himself?

 

[posthuman]

Yes! Christ's faith is how he was always obedient to his Father even unto death, the death of the cross. That's the faith that justifies the believer.

He and the Father are ontologically one - I don't think it makes sense to say Christ "has faith"

"Faith is the evidence of things unseen" but "nothing is hidden from His sight"

He has "faithfulness"

 

[John146]

I'm trying to imagine what context it could possibly make sense to say omniscient God "has faith"??

faith in Who? Himself?

Jesus was completely obedient to his Father even unto death, the death of the cross. Yes? God's righteousness was on display through the faith of Jesus Christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

No, I agree, I didn't, but I walked away from His grace. Remember the prodigal son? He chose to come back home. He was in a back slidden state, out in sin, but he returned.






Still agree, but I can still walk away from the truth.

agree, As long as we remember, the prodigal son was still the son.

He never stopped..

ps. i was agreeing with you in the post and adding to what you said.. I hope you did not take me wrong.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Thank you for replying:

Here is what the Bible teaches in regard to you leaving Jesus.

WE, are not only in HIM, but HE also lives in US!

Here are just a few examples:

Galatians 2:20—“It is Christ who lives in me”
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself up for me.”
Colossians 1:27—“Christ in you”
“To whom God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which isChrist in you, the hope of glory.”


So by necessity, Jesus would have to leave and abandon you in order for you to lose your salvation.

Obviously Scripture teaches otherwise. I pray you re-evaluate your position on this.

John 15

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Runningman]

I'm trying to imagine what context it could possibly make sense to say omniscient God "has faith"??

faith in Who? Himself?

Yes Jesus had faith.

Jesus said his Father knows something that he doesn’t know, but Jesus believed God. That’s faith.

Mark 13
32“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Are there times in the gospel when Jesus had access to divine knowledge, but other times only had human knowledge of events taking place?

 

[PennEd]

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away:

The word for 'TAKETH AWAY" in that verse is:
142. airó - Definition: to raise, take up, lift

Those branches (person) IN JESUS, that do not bear fruit are taken away or lifted up. No longer able to be profitable to the Kingdom, or store up treasures in Heaven. They will stand at the judgement Seat of Christ (Bema Seat) and receive no rewards. They have the Foundation (Jesus Christ), but that's it. They will be among the LEAST in the Kingdom of Heaven. BUT, they will be there.

They are DIFFERENT than those in in verse 6 who are NOT in Jesus. Vital distinction.

 

[Runningman]

John 15

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.

2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

True.

Here’s how Paul put it.

Romans 11
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[VARob]

Sin cannot enter heaven.

Then none of us are going. We all still sin.

In the story where I end up killing a person, unless I repent and turn from sin I cannot enter heaven. I can not live in sin, live a continual sinful lifestyle and gain heaven. That is an abuse of God's grace. Otherwise what the pastor said that I quoted earlier in this thread is true. No matter what sin is committed, he believes he's going to heaven.

I believe that if a person is a Christian (born again of the Holy Spirit), he is a child of God and shall absolutely be saved. This is not a license to sin, because we will all be judged, and receive for the things done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Cor 5:10). The difference between a faithful Christian and an unfaithful one will be rewards. There will be a big difference between the reward a faithful Christian receives and the reward an unfaithful one receives, which may be nothing at all (1 Cor 3:10-15).

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Then none of us are going. We all still sin.

Yes, true, we slip and fail. That's different than walking away from the Lord and living in sin. Again our sins are under the blood as long as we remain in Him, as long as we repent and turn. But if we go back into sin again, thats a different story.

I believe that if a person is a Christian (born again of the Holy Spirit), he is a child of God and shall absolutely be saved. This is not a license to sin, because we will all be judged, and receive for the things done in the body, whether good or evil (2 Cor 5:10). The difference between a faithful Christian and an unfaithful one will be rewards. There will be a big difference between the reward a faithful Christian receives and the reward an unfaithful one receives, which may be nothing at all (1 Cor 3:10-15).

Well, I would agree with that view also. But I still believe man has free will and can walk away from salvation.

 

[VARob]

Well, I would agree with that view also. But I still believe man has free will and can walk away from salvation.

If you walk away from your parents, aren't you still their child?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

If you walk away from your parents, aren't you still their child?

Yes, I am still their child, but lost in sin. The prodigal son returned. God can love you all the way to hell. He does not force His will on anyone.

 

[PennEd]

Yes, true, we slip and fail. That's different than walking away from the Lord and living in sin. Again our sins are under the blood as long as we remain in Him, as long as we repent and turn. But if we go back into sin again, thats a different story.





Well, I would agree with that view also. But I still believe man has free will and can walk away from salvation.

I think you would agree we are His sheep. He will search out His sheep UNTIL he finds every last one. God will not allow His children to live in sin. He will discipline them in various ways to draw them back to Him. Why would He do this?
Because they are His kids!
Luke 15:4
New King James Version

4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?



Sometimes the sheep aren't responsive, and He will deliver that sheep over to Satan for the destruction of their flesh, that their Spirit will be saved.

1 Corinthians 5:5
New King James Version

5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

 

[VARob]

Yes, I am still their child, but lost in sin. The prodigal son returned. God can love you all the way to hell. He does not force His will on anyone.

Christianity, where people become literally born of God, born again of the Holy Spirit, began on the day of Pentecost. Nobody was a Christian before the day of Pentecost. Christians are quite literally children of God. That does not change, it will never change. If we are saved by faith and not by works (we are..), then works are not what maintains our salvation and lack of works cannot cause us to lose our salvation. We are sealed with gift of the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of salvation (Eph 1:13-14).

Again, rewards are a huge deal, far bigger than most Christians realize, IMO.

 

[BillG]

I absolutely agree with that 110%. He is faithful, but I could be unfaithful. He doesn't fail, but I could. Say my parents raised me right. They give me every opportunity they can afford. They take the time to instill values and the right discipline. They teach me to put God first, they take me to church. They have done everything right they could possibly do. Now I become an adult. I fall into a bad group of friends, before long I have an addiction problem. Then I begin to steal for my habit. One night I decide to steal and someone resists, I have a gun and I kill them. Now I'm in prison. Who was unfaithful? Who failed? Who moved? Was it my parents, God? No I made the choice. I believe once you're saved you're always saved, if you remain saved. No one can take you from God, but you can freely walk away. That doesn't make Him unfaithful.

Perdantic I know but in the above scenario all I can see is that your parents basically teach you right from wrong when it comes to God go to church etc.
You then give a far fetched scenario (not unusual for those who reject OSAS based on what they understand it to mean as per your scenario)

But not once in the above have you said or intimated that you were a Christian.

I have done exactly the same with my 4 kids as per your scenario above but it doesn't make them a Christian.