Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[BreatheFocusBet]

Once again, it's 'descriptive' and not prescriptive. Otherwise, we would have a contradiction in scripture. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9 etc..).

Romans 2:6-10 contrasts those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality, everyone who does good (descriptive of believers) with those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, everyone who does evil (descriptive of unbelievers).

How about a little context. Romans 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. 15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. Nothing here about a loss of salvation.

There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense; slaves of sin unto death, or slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

The one who is continuously (Greek present tense) sowing to his own corrupt, sinful nature which is opposed to God and unrenewed by the Holy Spirit shall of the flesh reap corruption. Our life here is sowing of one kind or another. But he who sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap everlasting life. In opposition to corruption, eternal life is produced by the Holy Spirit in those who put their faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ for salvation.

Still looking for the specific words, "lost salvation."

In addition to this post
https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ed-osas-debunked.201128/page-145#post-5000790

I would also add, even though the Bible seems to refer to two different concepts as "Eternal life"
The first in 1 John 5:13 John 3:16 which comes through faith in Jesus Christ.

and the second that Jude 1:21 calls "eternal life" in John 5:28-29, Romans 2:7, and 1 Corinthians 15:53, etc. which comes at the resurrection at the Last Trumpet, where there is no more mortality.

They both are Jesus Christ, not just the first one. I believe this is what Jesus Christ meant here.

John 11:25-26
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in Me will live, even though he dies. And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?”

further

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true—in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

 

[HeIsHere]

I implore you all.
Please do not write people off based on their behaviour,.
Jesus didn't do that with hot headed Peter.

Absolutely agree!

 

[HeIsHere]

I don’t see it that way. I don’t really gain anything from going out of my way to do good works. I just do it for the glory of God. Actually, salvation isn’t even why I’m attracted to God in the first place. I’m here because I understand it to be my purpose God has assigned to me. It’s just for God’s glory and me being who I am brings God glory too.

So while it’s possible some may have ulterior motives, I don’t think that’s normal. I think your scenario is more characteristic of false disciples of Jesus than true disciples.

So God offers the free gift of salvation, based upon a level of sacrifice, none of us will ever truly comprehend and to defend you faulty doctrine you say that doesn't matter to me.

And just to add we have very little knowledge of our own subconscious and conscious motivations, only God knows our hearts that is why David asked God to search his heart.

Your human works, while they may be good, will never be good enough, only Jesus has the good works able to fulfill the perfect standard this is why spiritual salvation can neither be gained nor maintained by any human effort.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[Runningman]

So God offers the free gift of salvation, based upon a level of sacrifice, none of us will ever truly comprehend and to defend you faulty doctrine you say that doesn't matter to me.

And just to add we have very little knowledge of our own subconscious and conscious motivations, only God knows our hearts that is why David asked God to search his heart.

Your human works, while they may be good, will never be good enough, only Jesus has the good works able to fulfill the perfect standard this is why spiritual salvation can neither be gained nor maintained by any human effort.

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

I am commenting on multiple threads and I find that I’ve reached a point where I am just mirroring the same talking points in both. So let me just say what you need to see.

OSAS isn’t accurate.

You're only under grace if you're continually walking in the Spirit. If you stop walking in the Spirit you're under the law and, therefore, not under grace. So you have to actually do something. Grace isn't unmerited or undeserved favor. It's quid pro quo and depends on your choices from day to day and sometimes from second to second.

Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

So, like I said, there are things you have to do to stay in that grace. Obedience and a striving to be righteous are required. Here's another example of falling from grace due to not being led by the Spirit.

Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

 

[HeIsHere]

I am commenting on multiple threads and I find that I’ve reached a point where I am just mirroring the same talking points in both. So let me just say what you need to see.

OSAS isn’t accurate.

You're only under grace if you're continually walking in the Spirit. If you stop walking in the Spirit you're under the law and, therefore, not under grace. So you have to actually do something. Grace isn't unmerited or undeserved favor. It's quid pro quo and depends on your choices from day to day and sometimes from second to second.

Galatians 5
16So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

So, like I said, there are things you have to do to stay in that grace. Obedience and a striving to be righteous are required. Here's another example of falling from grace due to not being led by the Spirit.

Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord. 15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son. 17Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was rejected. Even though he sought the blessing with tears, he could not change what he had done.

Again you are confusing and conflating verses concerning the Christian walk/discipleship with non existent notion of maintaining salvation. Falling from grace is not synonymous with losing salvation, it means not living in the new creation.

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Colossians 2:6

Walking in the spirit is not for spiritual salvation, you cannot even walk in the Spirit unless you are saved and have eternal life within you.

Let me break it to you, your righteousness is as filthy rags, you will never do enough, nor be good enough to meet God's perfect standard.

If you cannot understand this basic scriptural truth then you have not understood the Gospel.

And btw, the holiness is the holiness of Christ Jesus within the believer, nothing we can manufacture on our own. And "blessings" is not synonymous with spiritual salvation.

 

[Runningman]

Again you are confusing and conflating verses concerning the Christian walk/discipleship with non existent notion of maintaining salvation. Falling from grace is not synonymous with losing salvation, it means not living in the new creation.

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Colossians 2:6

Walking in the spirit is not for spiritual salvation, you cannot even walk in the Spirit unless you are saved and have eternal life within you.

Let me break it to you, your righteousness is as filthy rags, you will never do enough, nor be good enough to meet God's perfect standard.

If you cannot understand this basic scriptural truth then you have not understood the Gospel.

And btw, the holiness is the holiness of Christ Jesus within the believer, nothing we can manufacture on our own. And "blessings" is not synonymous with spiritual salvation.

Well, you quoted Ephesians 2. You're basically trying to say you're saved by grace through faith and not works. Absolutely correct! But you are not understanding what grace is.

I am showing you with Galatians 5:16-18 and Hebrews 12:14-17 that God's grace is accessed by faith as you walk in the Spirit. If you are not walking in the Spirit, you're under law, and have, therefore, fallen short of God's grace. OSAS is false. You're going to have to walk in the Spirit or face the consequences which can potentially result in a loss of salvation.

The NT is quite clear about this. Those who are under the law are judged by the law and sinners judged by the law receive death.

 

[Sipsey]

Again you are confusing and conflating verses concerning the Christian walk/discipleship with non existent notion of maintaining salvation. Falling from grace is not synonymous with losing salvation, it means not living in the new creation.

Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him,
Colossians 2:6

Walking in the spirit is not for spiritual salvation, you cannot even walk in the Spirit unless you are saved and have eternal life within you.

Let me break it to you, your righteousness is as filthy rags, you will never do enough, nor be good enough to meet God's perfect standard.

If you cannot understand this basic scriptural truth then you have not understood the Gospel.

And btw, the holiness is the holiness of Christ Jesus within the believer, nothing we can manufacture on our own. And "blessings" is not synonymous with spiritual salvation.

Well said! It seems to me that those who misunderstand the Gospel have an errant view of grace itself; and even what real forgiveness means. Human emotions are a gift, but they often cloud our thinking and many express their emotionally-tainted ideas, rather than the reality of God’s truths.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, you quoted Ephesians 2. You're basically trying to say you're saved by grace through faith and not works. Absolutely correct! But you are not understanding what grace is.

I am showing you with Galatians 5:16-18 and Hebrews 12:14-17 that God's grace is accessed by faith as you walk in the Spirit. If you are not walking in the Spirit, you're under law, and have, therefore, fallen short of God's grace. OSAS is false. You're going to have to walk in the Spirit or face the consequences which can potentially result in a loss of salvation.

The NT is quite clear about this. Those who are under the law are judged by the law and sinners judged by the law receive death.

1. Gentiles were never under the law.

2. Grace is a continuum in a believers life, the grace that saves and then the empowering grace which enables the person to walk the worthy walk, patterned after the life of Jesus.

“My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.”

The believer can fall from enabling, empowering grace and walk in the flesh, this is not losing salvation! Period Full Stop.

The metric for salvation according to God of the Bible is 100% secure, no guessing I have a revealed metric.


So answer this question.

Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well said! It seems to me that those who misunderstand the Gospel have an errant view of grace itself; and even what real forgiveness means. Human emotions are a gift, but they often cloud our thinking and many express their emotionally-tainted ideas, rather than the reality of God’s truths.

So true, AMEN!

 

[Mem]

Romans 11:6
And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

You may enjoy my grace as long as you are good...?

 

[Runningman]

1. Gentiles were never under the law.

Your pretense is false and explains why you aren’t understanding this. Gentiles are not under the law of Moses, but under God’s law.

Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Again. If you are not walking by the Spirit of God then you’re under the law and not under grace. That can result in a loss of salvation,

 

[HeIsHere]

Your pretense is false and explains why you aren’t understanding this. Gentiles are not under the law of Moses, but under God’s law.

Romans 2
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

You did not specify conscience (Gentiles) and the Law.

No matter answer the question, waiting!!

 

[Runningman]

You did not specify conscience (Gentiles) and the Law.

No matter answer the question, waiting!!

I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity. You have a different problem now and it’s between you and God at this point.

God is not wrong, it’s you that is wrong. Your faulty understanding doesn’t make God deceptive as you just so boldly declared.

“So answer this question.

Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.”

 

[Magenta]

We are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which
God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10)

Ephesians 2:10

 

[Ted01]

Grace isn't unmerited or undeserved favor.

I think that to define Grace as "Unmerited or undeserved favor" is generally used as a truncated definition... at least, that's would how I would personally communicate it.

Can you share your "definition" of Grace?

 

[Runningman]

I’m not going to answer this question that strips God of His deity. You have a different problem now and it’s between you and God at this point.

God is not wrong, it’s you that is wrong. Your faulty understanding doesn’t make God deceptive as you just so boldly declared.

“So answer this question.

Tell me, if you are so convinced being under the law/falling from grace causes one to loose their salvation, I want the exact metric God provides........ because otherwise this god (small g on purpose) is deceptive, not forthright and fickle.”

And to answer your question @HeIsHere the exact metric is provided. You’re to walk in the Spirit, if you don’t then you’re under God’s law. You’re to not make a practice of sin. If you do then you need to repent, confess it to God, and go forward making every effort follow the Spirit of God that is leading you.

This is all in Romans, Hebrews, Galatians, and 1 John.

Perhaps the obvious red flag 🚩 on your part is that you’re, in effect, arguing against the requirement to walk in the Spirit. Paul is conclusive that they who follow after the flesh (those who don’t walk in the Spirit) will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[Runningman]

I think that to define Grace as "Unmerited or undeserved favor" is generally used as a truncated definition... at least, that's would how I would personally communicate it.

Can you share your "definition" of Grace?

Sure I’ll share the definition of grace, but first I’m curious why you put the word definition in quotes. Doesn’t that normally mean you’re skeptical or in disagreement about the word being quoted? Like whatever definition I provide you’re going to say it’s my personal interpretation and probably reject it right?

 

[Ted01]

Sure I’ll share the definition of grace, but first I’m curious why you put the word definition in quotes. Doesn’t that normally mean you’re skeptical or in disagreement about the word being quoted? Like whatever definition I provide you’re going to say it’s my personal interpretation and probably reject it right?

LoL... I do get you asking that question, but remember my council about assuming things about people.
I am indeed skeptical about the word "definition". But it has nothing to do with me setting you up to be rejected by any stretch.

I do honestly think that "definitions" are subjective by nature... think of it more as my own eccentricity. Just look in any dictionary for any given word and there will be a list of different usages of that word... see a dictionary is not a book of "definitions", it's a book of common usage of words. (You probably already know this). Studying the etymology of a word will often get us closer to understanding a more concise definition.

 

[Runningman]

LoL... I do get you asking that question, but remember my council about assuming things about people.
I am indeed skeptical about the word "definition". But it has nothing to do with me setting you up to be rejected by any stretch.

I do honestly think that "definitions" are subjective by nature... think of it more as my own eccentricity. Just look in any dictionary for any given word and there will be a list of different usages of that word... see a dictionary is not a book of "definitions", it's a book of common usage of words. (You probably already know this). Studying the etymology of a word will often get us closer to understanding a more concise definition.

Lol okay thank you. I’m sorry if I was a bit defensive. These forums bring that out in people and being setup for a one-two punch (so to speak) is a thing when discussing the Bible with people who already have a different perspective.

Anyway, when I read about grace in the Bible, a Greek/Hebrew lexicon, or an English dictionary I don’t see that it’s described as unconditional or unmerited. I see grace as just meaning favor or goodwill.

For example, if grace was truly unmerited favor then that would mean Universalism. There would be literally no prerequisites for salvation, no faith required, absolutely nothing. All that would exist is sinners standing in hostility toward God receiving grace. That would truly be unmerited favor.

So if I may ask, do you see Universalism as Biblically viable?

 

[Ted01]

Lol okay thank you. I’m sorry if I was a bit defensive. These forums bring that out in people and being setup for a one-two punch (so to speak) is a thing when discussing the Bible with people who already have a different perspective.

Anyway, when I read about grace in the Bible, a Greek/Hebrew lexicon, or an English dictionary I don’t see that it’s described as unconditional or unmerited. I see grace as just meaning favor or goodwill.

For example, if grace was truly unmerited favor then that would mean Universalism. There would be literally no prerequisites for salvation, no faith required, absolutely nothing. All that would exist is sinners standing in hostility toward God receiving grace. That would truly be unmerited favor.

So if I may ask, do you see Universalism as Biblically viable?

Thank you for replying... I appreciate it!

As for Universalism, I think it's not only an incorrect belief, but also, it's untenable with a mere perusal of the Bible.