Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4

[presidente]

This is where the post-trib train derails.[/quote[

That's Evmur's theory, not all post-millers.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Post-trib Resurrection? Yes.

Right.

Corresponding exactly with what 1Cor15:23 says (re: resurrection):

"But EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in the own ORDER / RANK"

(then goes on, with Paul using the word "EPeita" in this v.23--distinct from the "eita" word he uses in the next verse in v.24a which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached to it)

Post-trib Rapture? No.

Correct!


NOWHERE to be found in ANY of the contexts pertaining to His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19)... and they are ABUNDANT.

 

[presidente]

Right.

Corresponding exactly with what 1Cor15:23 says (re: resurrection):

"But EACH [a word meaning, 'of more than two'] in the own ORDER / RANK"

(then goes on, with Paul using the word "EPeita" in this v.23--distinct from the "eita" word he uses in the next verse, in v.24a, which is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached to it)

You never did answer my questions about this and other assertions about the distinctions between epeita and eita you asserted in your former posts in another thread.

I must have asked you five times if you knew Greek or were studying it. I think you probably dodged the questions.

1. Do you know how to read the Greek language, and have you recognized from usage in context, the difference between eita and epeita?
2. Do you know of any Greek dictionaries or commentaries that assert the same distinctions you do have between eita and epeita?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @presidente ,


Again... for the readers...

--"eita" (used in v.24a) "THEN [eita] the end" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY, with NO time-element attached to it... Which is why it is perfectly right to understand v.24a to be speaking of something 1000 YEARS later [a SEQUENTIAL matter--as in a LIST; not saying, "THEN [IMMEDIATELY] the end" as the Amill-teachings incorrectly insist, here]


--"EPeita" Paul uses in the preceding verse (v.23... our verse under discussion... subject still: "resurrection ['to stand again' (on the earth, bodily, after having physically DIED)]...and don't forget the "BUT [conjunction]" joining what was just said in v.22b to that being said in v.23... "EPeita" used 16x in the NT (examine these to see what sense it gives, in contrast to what I just supplied about the word "eita"):


"EPeita" - 16x - [ep and eita... "UPON-then"]

--epeita - G1899 (16x... in the verses listed below; 15x besides our 1Cor15:23 verse under discussion... check them out; none mean "and then a long time afterward [like, nearly 2000 yrs later...]")

1) Mark 7:5 -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/7/5/ss1/s_964005 "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


2) Luke 16:7 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/16-7.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


3) John 11:7 -
https://biblehub.com/text/john/11-7.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


4) 1 Corinthians 15:6 -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/6/ss1/s_1077005 "AFTER THAT / THEREAFTER [epeita - G1899]"


5) 1 Corinthians 15:7 -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1co/15/7/ss1/s_1077005 "AFTER THAT / THEN [epeita] - G1899]"


6) 1 Corinthians 12:28 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/12-28.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


[7) 1 Corinthians 15:23 - our verse under present discussion]


8) 1 Corinthians 15:46 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15-46.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


9) Galatians 1:18 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/1-18.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


10) Galatians 1:21 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/1-21.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


11) Galatians 2:1 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/galatians/2-1.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


12) 1 Thessalonians 4:17 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/4-17.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


13) Hebrews 7:2 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-2.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


14) Hebrews 7:27 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/7-27.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"
https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/heb/7/27/ss1/s_1140027 "AND THEN [epeita - G1899]"


15) James 3:17 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/james/3-17.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"


16) James 4:14 -
https://biblehub.com/interlinear/james/4-14.htm "THEN [epeita - G1899]"

 

[oyster67]

Because that's when sacrifice ceased.

The Jews will restart at the first opportunity they get. Revelation is clear on this.

 

[Cameron143]

The Jews will restart at the first opportunity they get. Revelation is clear on this.

It still doesn't change what I said. And...all this time and still nothing.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Nothing that suggests anything other than pre-trib in any verse. It is the only logical and sensible scenario. No evidence for rapture after the tribulation in the Bible. The Bible goes into great detail about what happens in heaven before the Second Coming.
Post-trib Resurrection? Yes.
Post-trib Rapture? No.

In the second LETTER to the Thessalonians found in the second Chapter there's more evidence for a Mid Rapture than a Pre.

When Paul clarifies the Antichrist must sit in the Temple claiming to be God and the Holy Spirit leaves Earth before Christ Returns, that provides more evidence than a baloney secret Coming that is mentioned NOWHERE.

 

[oyster67]

It still doesn't change what I said. And...all this time and still nothing.

Please tellest thou me whatsoever thou seekest, dear brother.

 

[Cameron143]

Please tellest thou me whatsoever thou seekest, dear brother.

Brother I'm not seeking anything. I was using a text that someone else quoted and asked him why he didn't understand the verse to be referring to a time it was referring to?
I think the book of Revelation has largely been fulfilled in the 1st century. I know it's not a popular view these days but to me it allows for the easiest explanation and doesn't require making terms mean anything other than what the plain language states.
It also allows for the book to actually be written to the audience who first received it. I don't see how a book written for future generations would give comfort to 1st century believers.
But I'm not trying to change anyone's view. Just get their understanding of what verses that come up mean to them.

No hidden agenda.

 

[Cameron143]

Please tellest thou me whatsoever thou seekest, dear brother.

And kudos and bonus points for using KJV language.

 

[oyster67]

I think the book of Revelation has largely been fulfilled in the 1st century. I know it's not a popular view these days but to me it allows for the easiest explanation and doesn't require making terms mean anything other than what the plain language states.
It also allows for the book to actually be written to the audience who first received it. I don't see how a book written for future generations would give comfort to 1st century believers.

I too believe that much has been fulfilled, but I also believe in double fulfillments. For example:

An angry little Greek named Aunty Ochus Epiphanes defiled the temple a few years before Jesus came to Earth the first time. I believe this will be done again 3.5 years before He comes the second time (by the Antichrist.)

 

[Cameron143]

I too believe that much has been fulfilled, but I also believe in double fulfillments. For example:

An angry little Greek named Aunty Ochus Epiphanes defiled the temple a few years before Jesus came to Earth the first time. I believe this will be done again 3.5 years before He comes the second time (by the Antichrist.)

There is certainly precedent for double fulfillment. The book of Isaiah has the deliverance of Israel from Babylon. But it also looks forward to the deliverance to come in Christ. But I see it easily from the text there explicitly and don't see it so much with Revelation.

 

[oyster67]

There is certainly precedent for double fulfillment. The book of Isaiah has the deliverance of Israel from Babylon. But it also looks forward to the deliverance to come in Christ. But I see it easily from the text there explicitly and don't see it so much with Revelation.

Like for information about the Rapture, Thessalonians is a great source for future goings on...

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Context

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

 

[Evmur]

Like for information about the Rapture, Thessalonians is a great source for future goings on...

2 Thessalonians 2:4 Context

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

except you say that day shall come ... you believe the rap can happen any time, any second from now ... you prolly believe it is the next great event to take place.

 

[justpassinthrough]

The text in Heb9:28 says, "a second time apart from sin shall appear [passive; G3708]."

The TEN VERSES having the word "appear [passive; G3708]" regarding Jesus (out of 684x that "G3708" word is used) are ALL speaking of what took place FOLLOWING His Resurrection.

(NONE refer to His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross and His Resurrection. NONE!)...

IOW, the FIRST time "apart from sin" He appeared [G3708, passive, like in Heb9:28] was AFTER His Resurrection.

And of those TEN MENTIONS (of this same word Heb9:28 uses "G3708-passive"), FIVE of them refer to instances of when He was UP IN HEAVEN / FROM HIS POSITION IN HEAVEN (after His ASCENSION told of in Acts 1--meaning, AFTER THAT).




So, no... you'd have to come up with a more convincing argument or passage, as Heb9:28 (as I see it) isn't saying what many people SUGGEST it is conveying.

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/9-28.htm


1537 [e]
ek
ἐκ
for
Prep

1208 [e]
deuterou
δευτέρου ,
a second time
Adj-GMS

5565 [e]
chōris
χωρὶς
apart from
Prep

266 [e]
hamartias
ἁμαρτίας ,
sin
N-GFS

3708 [e]
ophthēsetai
ὀφθήσεται
will appear
V-FIP-3S




-- Hebrews 9:28 Interlinear: so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time apart from a sin-offering shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation! (biblehub.com)

I don’t need to convince you or anyone else of anything.

You either believe that Jesus will appear a second time or you don’t.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28


The fact remains that at the coming of the the Lord the resurrection and rapture will take place.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

The coming of the Lord refers to His second coming, in which He will return from heaven and appear to all.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31


Every eye will see Him at His coming.

Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Revelation 1:7





JPT

 

[Nehemiah6]

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

That should say "the day of the Lord" (as most translations now have it). The "day of the Lord" (divine judgment) comes only AFTER the reign of the Antichrist. But the Rapture ("the day of Christ") comes BEFORE the Antichrist is revealed.

 

[justpassinthrough]

Pay strict attention to what TDW has to say bro. Time to up your game a little......

I don’t need to up anything.

The scriptures have exposed the heresy of the false pretrib rapture doctrine.

For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15


The resurrection and rapture occur at the second coming of Jesus Christ.


Your either believe what the scriptures teach or you believe a lie.





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

[I added an underlining]

I'm delighted to see that you've underlined the word "SO THAT"... which I see (instead) as connecting back to the specific words saying "who [identifying] OPPOSES AND EXALTS HIMSELF above all that is called God or that is worshipped"... which points us back to the "king" who "shall do according to his [own] will" in Dan11:36 [many scholars see the break between v.35 and this v.36], which section (11:36-end) would be describing things IN THE FIRST HALF, occurring BEFORE the Dan12:1 MID-POINT (starting the SECOND / LATTER HALF of the 7 yrs, and lasts 3.5 yrs [the 1260 days... or 1290 days, whichever one you want to think connects]).

Here's what the word for "SO THAT" shows (per BibleHub):

HELPS Word-studies
5620 hṓste (a conjunction, derived from 5613 /hōs, "as" and 5037 /té, "both-and") – wherefore (with the result that both . . . ), connecting cause to necessary effect which emphasizes the result (the combined, end-accomplishment). The result involved then is the combination of both elements in the correlation, underscoring the inevitable effect of the paired elements.

[This common point ("fulcrum") of the correlation is the key link for yielding the result of the cause-and-effect relationship.]


[end quoting from BibleHub]


As I see it, it connects what he does in 2:4b ("SITTETH" and "SHEWING HIMSELF") back to the point of his "OPPOSING" and "EXALTING HIMSELF"... (which, as I see it... besides the connection with Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE" (a certain one, bringing deception)... also connects with the rider on the white horse WITH A BOW [often meaning "DECEPTION"--see 2Th2:9-10a], when it says "went forth CONQUERING and TO CONQUER" which is at the START of the "7 yrs" as is Dan9:27 first line [v.27a].)




I realize this is a common understanding... I just disagree, for reasons I stated above.

Also, as I've mentioned in past posts, I see parallel language between the wording in 2Th2:7b-8a to that of Lam2:3-4 ("He hath DRAWN BACK His right hand FROM BEFORE the enemy," iow lifting His restraint [allowing the enemy to have at it!]... and [besides the "wrath" words and "flaming fire" wording] also says, "He STOOD with His right hand as an enemy...")




Agreed.

But I'm not sure why anyone would highlight the second line, skipping over the first line entirely (which is also what he will do--which I believe corresponds with the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the man of sin which 2Th2:9a speaks to specifically, at the START of the "7 yrs"... aka SEAL #1 at the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, per Paul's words in 1Th5:3 reflective of Jesus' words in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 the FIRST of MANY "birth PANGS").




Anyway, THANKS for your response! Much appreciated!

Plainly and irrefutably our gathering together to Christ, at the resurrection and rapture occurs after the antichrist is revealed, at the second coming of Christ.

• for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4





JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Disagree. He is revealed on the world stage (being unmistakably and positively identified) when he ratifies/enforces/confirms "the covenant". Which initiates at the beginning of the 70th week. This is made very clear in the sequence.

This of course matches the opening of the first seal of Rev 6. Which matches all relevant statements made by Jesus on the matter. It all lines up perfectly.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The antichrist is revealed by him going to the temple of God and proclaiming himself as God.


Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4


This occurs in the middle of the week.


Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week;
But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”
Daniel 9:27




JPT

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed,

Verse 3a's "that Day" refers grammatically to that which the IMMEDIATELY PRECEDING verse was speaking of (in the "false claim" that it "is present / is already here" v.2), which is the matter of "the Day of the Lord"... the earthly-located time-period that is KICKED OFF by:

the FIRST SEAL (rider on wht horse WITH BOW) / the FIRST "birth PANG" Jesus listed ("G5100 - 'A CERTAIN ONE" [bringing deception]) / the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" of the "man of sin" "IN HIS TIME" (2Th2:9a,6) / "king" of Dan11:36-37 & Dan7 ('[ye have heard] that antichrist is COMING') / Dan9:27a's "he" ('the prince that SHALL COME') to kick off that confirming of the covenant "FOR ONE WEEK [7yrs]"--what we commonly call "the 7-yr Tribulation Period"--a time-period of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME...

... again, it is NOT merely "a singular 24-hr day" (the 24-hr day of Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19), and what Paul says in 1Th5:3 PROVES it