Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
- Thread starter Nehemiah6
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You’re saying that God created people for destruction even though He doesn’t want anyone to die?
I thought there was only two categories: righteous and wicked. How is a born again person wicked? It’s quite difficult for a born again person to deliberately and consciously sin.
Paul wrote 2 Cor 4:3-4 and stated the Gospel is hid from the Lost, in fact he said his Gospel is hid from them
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
So take his word for it
Sure God wants them He created for destruction as vessels of wrath, He wants them to perish for their sins, its a matter of Justice with God
No you’re interpreting the vessels of destruction passage incorrectly. God isn’t double minded.
P
pablocito
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You are right about chewing off more than you can handle. If a topic or subject is introduced into a discussion, then that person who introduced that topic, should have the correct answers else only mayhem and confusion will ensue.
Yes, God is sovereign over all but we need to understand how? The answer is very simple to some but to others it is a mystery.
In high school many students memorized formulas and equations without understanding how those formulas worked or how they were derived. All they did was to plug in numbers into the formula and out came the answer. But if a monkey wrench was thrown into a problem then they would fall flat on their faces.
God is Sovereign, but how?
Also there is no freewill in the bible except for freewill offerings or gifts. Now understanding the concept of freewill is to understand God. So if we do not understand God, we will not understand freewill in a million years.
Now everyone is at a different stage of maturity so condemning or accusing someone for not knowing something is wrong because I cannot expect my 5 year old child to understand geometry or trigonometry, because there are other basic fundamental things that they have to first understand.
Freewill concept and Sovereignty concepts in the bible are knowable and not difficult if you know God.
Lastly there are somethings that we are not privy to and God says so. These things are hidden and similar to Object Oriented Programming, where we have data encapsulation, data hiding , Data Abstraction, we as users only need to press a user interface button or key and like magic, the solution appears before our eyes. No need to understand how God does it. For example God's salvation brings peace and increases our faith and puts on a very exhilarating trajectory and because we have it, we know that God is real.
Also the bible does not give details about our heavenly experience. It only says there will be no tears or sadness etc etc etc. But seeing that we have faith in God, this is not a problem and we believe it because God said it.
Notice who Satan has blinded the minds of....them which believe not. Like the Jews, once they rejected Jesus Christ, their minds were blinded. Satan makes this world so appealing, it becomes foolish to believe the preaching of the gospel.
No Im correct, and no God isnt doubleminded, Those He created as vessels of wrath and fitted and is fitting for destruction, He doesnt desire their Salvation, but their destruction, He conceived that for them before He created them.
Whoever is a unbeliever is lost and under the power of the devil, they wont be able to believe the Gospel while lost.
The correct interpretation of that passage is about God’s sovereignty. Paul is being hypothetical about God predestining people to destruction while predestining the salvation of others.
Paul doesn’t say that is what God does, but rather is just making a point about God’s sovereign choice to do anything He wants. Hence the "what ifs."
Look at it again. The whole context is Paul answering hypothetical questions.
Romans 9
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
Not according to Paul...
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ....and what happens? Thou shalt be saved.
Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord....shalt be saved.
How shall they call upon him whom they have not believed?
How shall they believe in him whom they have not heard?
How shall they hear without a preacher?
How shall they preach unless they be sent?
I already know the context, Its been stated thats what God did, He made some as vessels of wrath and they'll be by Him, through their own sinfulness and Gods providence fitted for destruction and wrath. That was Gods whole design in giving them breath.
Likewise the vessels of mercy, they were created and made in order that God will shew them mercy for their sinfulness. They were Chosen in Christ and are the election of Grace. And yes all is according to Gods Sovereignty.
Yes according to Paul, Paul wrote 2 Cor 4:3-4 revealing that the lost have the Gospel hid from them so they wont and cant believe.
That's not in any Bible version/translation I've ever read. The versions I've read say "what if." So I'll just stick to what the Bible says and continue believing Paul is being hypothetical. In light of other passages that say God wants all to be saved and doesn't want the wicked to perish, it's literally impossible for me to receive your interpretation as sound.
Romans 9:22
New International Version
What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?
English Standard Version
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
King James Bible
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
New American Standard Bible
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?
Amplified Bible
What if God, although willing to show His [terrible] wrath and to make His power known, has tolerated with great patience the objects of His wrath [which are] prepared for destruction?
But after the example of the Potter and the Clay we have an immediate outcome in the same Chapter where God chooses to graft in the Gentiles.
So it's quite obvious that Paul is explaining God can choose to do as He desires and His desire was to eventually include ALL humanity into the Salvation equation.
Basically, we're given reasons why God only chose the Jews and end with God choosing to include everyone.
Romans 9 completely outlines what we know from the Old Covenant and how it changed to include ALL HUMANITY with the New Covenant.
What the verse actually says is the gospel is hid to those who don't believe. When one is confronted with the gospel and does not believe, it becomes hid from them but not forever. In the same way, the gospel is hid from the minds of the nation of Israel, but not forever. Individually, there are Jews hearing the gospel, believing, and are saved.