Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Locoponydirtman]

yes. if someone is standing at a door and knocking then it stands to reason that if they are allowed to come in then they were invited in. I was a little confused why they were challenging this so much at first, but then I realized because it's because many things in the Bible are threat to Calvinism.

Calvinism wants regenerations before faith, but to have faith regeneration must occur as well. As result, they've caught themselves in a theological pickle.

Its not because calvin. Its because what scripture actually says not what is imposed upon it.
I personally find calvin to be wrong.
Context matters. Ya cant just rip a passage out of context and impose upon it what ever suits you.
Revelation 3:20 is a part of a larger passage that is an address to the Laodicean church, where in Jesus is admonishing them against their luke warm condition.
The passage in Ephesians is also written in a larger passage which gives context.
"For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
Paul is explaining why he is praying for them. This is not an instruction to invite Jesus into your heart.

 

[Runningman]

"saved", according to Greek translation means "delivered" After a person has been born again and given insight to believe in the things of the Spirit, they are delivered, as they sojourn here in this world, from ignorance of spiritual things. "Saved" in this scripture has no reference to eternal deliverance.

"From ignorance of spiritual things" has no reference in this context. The context is about going to heaven or not.

Romans 10
5Moses writes this about the righteousness that is by the law: “The person who does these things will live by them.” 6But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7“or ‘Who will descend into the deep?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

they do not believe you need faith in Jesus to be saved =

Use your concordance and see the meaning of "saved". It is a deliverance. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit received in the new birth. Faith in Jesus is a product of being born again, and can bring the child of God deliverances as he sojourns here on earth. Faith in Jesus is not the cause of one's eternal deliverance.

 

[Snacks]

Use your concordance and see the meaning of "saved". It is a deliverance. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit that comes with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit received in the new birth. Faith in Jesus is a product of being born again, and can bring the child of God deliverances as he sojourns here on earth. Faith in Jesus is not the cause of one's eternal deliverance.

You’re saved THEN you have faith?

 

[Cameron143]

You’re saved THEN you have faith?

The argument would be that one is made alive spiritually or regenerated and then are able to respond to spiritual reality

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Calvinists believe that People are save by Grace ----this Grace is irresistible and that God chooses who He wants to save by choosing who He wants to show His unmerited favour to -----they do not believe you need faith in Jesus to be saved ====that is how I understand it and of course it is very False Doctrine and anyone preaching this to others is sending themselves and the others to their Doom and should be ashamed of themselves -----

Calvinist are not saved people and therefore they have no truth in them of what the scriptures are really saying ------the Bible is a Spiritual Book -----for Spiritual People ----the natural man cannot grasp the Spiritual meaning or understanding of the scriptures as they have not God in them -------

We need to get the Spiritual meaning and understanding of what the Scriptures are communicating to us and we can only get that by Having God in us -------

Many Calvinists use ----Jacob and Esau as their example --God choosing the one He wanted and hating the other =====this needs Spiritual understanding and the Natural man cannot fathom the proper Spiritual understanding as they have not the Spiritual knowledge to do so ------

So all of us need to be weary of False Doctrine and Run Forest Run when it doesn't line up with Scripture ------Knowing the scriptures becomes very important in detecting Deception -----

I would caution you in trying to number Israel (those who are saved & those who are not) because God took thousands of the lives of Israel men, due to David trying to number Israel. (2 Sam 24)

 

[ForestGreenCook]

There is no predestination to hell in the Bible. There is only predestination to Heaven. If you disagree, please show me a verse that says there is such a thing as predestination to hell, as if God were the Author or Cause of Damnation or Evil.

Matt 25:41.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

1. The Holy Spirit gives His Call and His Grace freely to those who do not deserve it. If God did not turn us to Him, we would not turn to Him ourselves. But, neither before justification, nor after it, is it true that our free will does nothing at all.

2. God's Deliverance is like pulling us out a pit, a pit out of which we did not even want to be pulled. First, God enlightens our mind to desire deliverance or salvation, being pulled out of the pit. Then, He stretches down His hand to pull us out. If we freely respond, by believing in Him as Lord and Savior, and repenting of our sins, we are washed, and the Holy Spirit comes to live within us.

3. God's Election is not about we were before we came to Him: "7“The LORD did not set his heart on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other nations, for you were the smallest of all nations! 8Rather, it was simply that the LORD loves you, and he was keeping the oath he had sworn to your ancestors. That is why the LORD rescued you with such a strong hand from your slavery and from the oppressive hand of Pharaoh, king of Egypt." (Deuteronomy 7:7-8)

God chooses even the weak, to confound the strong: "Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth." (1 Cor 1:26)

There is no predestination to hell in the Bible. There is only predestination to Heaven. If you disagree, please show me a verse that says there is such a thing as predestination to hell, as if God were the Author or Cause of Damnation or Evil.

God Bless.

This speaks volumes toward eternal salvation by works.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Matt 25:41.

Nope. Says no such thing as a Predestination to hell. Rather, it says they went to hell, for their sin of not loving Christ in the Poor. He who loves Christ loves the Poor and he who does not love the Poor does not love Christ. That's what Mat 25 teaches.

Let's read the rest of it after verse 41 along with 41:

Mat 25: the wicked go to eternal punishment for failing to love Christ in the Poor:

"41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There is no Predestination to Hell here. They go to hell not because God created them for Hell, but because of their own wicked works, because they failed to keep God's Two Great Commandments, to love Him above all, and love one's neighbor.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

This speaks volumes toward eternal salvation by works.

Eternal Salvation is not independent of Good Works: Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Those who believe in the Lord Jesus, repent of their sins, and persevere in doing good, as it says above, will be saved.

Those who refuse to believe, do not repent, and persevere in doing evil, instead, as is only just and right, will be lost.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I think that Rom. 1:21 kinda shows us that all people are aware of God and therefore have the ability to call on Him... they don't need to be "regenerated" as some have suggested.

Romans 1:21 ESV For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

You are misinterpreting Rom 1, these are born again people who have backslid. (the lost sheep of the house of Israel) and do still have the promise of their eternal inheritance. They are in need of repentance to regain their fellowship with their God.

 

[studentoftheword]

I would caution you in trying to number Israel (those who are saved & those who are not) because God took thousands of the lives of Israel men, due to David trying to number Israel. (2 Sam 24)

I would CAUTION you to get out of the Old Testament and understand what Jesus did on the CROSS and make sure your Saved the way the WORD says your Saved ------and not just read the Word but actually put your Faith in Jesus into action and DO WHAT JESUS Tells you to Do to Be Saved -----

in ROMANS 10:9 ----make sure your doing what it says or your NOT SAVED ---and there are Many who think they are Saved but are not -------




God says this ---In Galacians 1:8-9-----So Take Caution so your not ACCURSED

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Nope. Says no such thing as a Predestination to hell. Rather, it says they went to hell, for their sin of not loving Christ in the Poor. He who loves Christ loves the Poor and he who does not love the Poor does not love Christ. That's what Mat 25 teaches.[/QUOTE


You are too indoctrinated in your false belief, that you cannot see the whole scripture. It says that hell was prepared (to make ready).

 

[Cameron143]

Nope. Says no such thing as a Predestination to hell. Rather, it says they went to hell, for their sin of not loving Christ in the Poor. He who loves Christ loves the Poor and he who does not love the Poor does not love Christ. That's what Mat 25 teaches.

Let's read the rest of it after verse 41 along with 41:

Mat 25: the wicked go to eternal punishment for failing to love Christ in the Poor:

"41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

There is no Predestination to Hell here. They go to hell not because God created them for Hell, but because of their own wicked works, because they failed to keep God's Two Great Commandments, to love Him above all, and love one's neighbor.

I'm always intrigued as this topic comes up how people reconcile Romans 9 with their views, and in particular, the verses concerning the potter and his power to make both to honor as well as destruction. When you have a chance, can you share your understanding?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Eternal Salvation is not independent of Good Works: Rom 2:6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

The promise of an eternal inheritance was given, to those that God gave to Jesus, John 6:39. and when they have been born again they experience eternal life from that moment, and forever.

There are no rewards in heaven. Rewards have to be earned, and are given here on earth to the obedient child of God, but to the disobedient child of God, indignation and wrath, until he repents.

Good works do not play a part in obtaining eternal heaven.

 

[studentoftheword]

Faith in Jesus is a product of being born again, and can bring the child of God deliverances as he sojourns here on earth. Faith in Jesus is not the cause of one's eternal deliverance.

That is False doctrine ------Faith comes by hearing the Word ----------God's Grace comes through Faith in His Son Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross -----

Better Read this very carefully -----cause this is The Truth ------
made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. -----So your Faith is IN JESUES

Ephesians 2:8-9

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;


9 Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law’s demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.]
I challenge you to give me a Scripture that says Faith in Jesus is a product of being Born again ----


AND just incase your not Clear on the Scripture above ------the CEV makes it Clear


Ephesians 2:8-9

Contemporary English Version

8 You were saved by faith in God, who treats us much better than we deserve.[a] This is God's gift to you, and not anything you have done on your own. 9 It isn't something you have earned, so there is nothing you can brag about.


So if ForestGreenCook you do not follow the Scripture and believe it ----YOU ARE NOT SAVED ___PERIOD--Your Ignorance of understanding is greatly showing here

 

[ForestGreenCook]

I would CAUTION you to get out of the Old Testament and understand what Jesus did on the CROSS and make sure your Saved the way the WORD says your Saved ------and not just read the Word but actually put your Faith in Jesus into action and DO WHAT JESUS Tells you to Do to Be Saved -----

in ROMANS 10:9 ----make sure your doing what it says or your NOT SAVED ---and there are Many who think they are Saved but are not -------


View attachment 246687

God says this ---In Galacians 1:8-9-----So Take Caution so your not ACCURSED

The difference in the false doctrine that you have been indoctrinated into, and the doctrine that Jesus taught, is that in Jesus doctrine, just because you have been persuaded to believe a false doctrine, Jesus doctrine says that you still have your eternal inheritance, but you have lost your fellowship with him, temporary, until you repent

Where in your false doctrine, If I do not do, what you think the scriptures tell me to do, then you think that I am going to hell.


Now witch of these doctrines have the love of Jesus in it?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

8 For it is by free grace (God’s unmerited favor) that you are saved ([a]delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ’s salvation) through [your] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God;

The faith in Eph 2:8, is not your faith, but is the faithfulness of Christ going to the cross (Gal 2:16), It is Christ's faith that justifies us.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

You cited a verse to me. I quoted that verse and gave the further context Can you explain why Jesus Christ said: "41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For [/Because] I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink"

Jesus Christ is telling them the reason they are going to Hell. According to you, He should have said, "oops, sorry, guys, you lost the Heavenly Lottery! I chose 10% and damned all the remaining 90%, and you just had the bad luck to be the latter".

#ThingsJesusneversaid.

But instead He said: "You are going to eternal hellfire, for the reason - or because - I was hungry, and you didn't give Me Food". If someone says, you are going to X, for I told you to do Y and you didn't it. It's obvious why that person goes to X.

The doctrine of John Calvin is not the doctrine of Jesus Christ. You follow the J.C. you agree with. I'll follow Jesus Christ.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

I'm always intrigued as this topic comes up how people reconcile Romans 9 with their views, and in particular, the verses concerning the potter and his power to make both to honor as well as destruction. When you have a chance, can you share your understanding?

Hi Cameron. Yes, Romans 9 does present some difficulties, let's admit that. But you know Peter said: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand" (2 Pet 3:16) so imo if there's a difficulty in a text of Paul, they should be clarified by a clear text from Jesus Christ.

But let's look at Romans 9. This is 16-18: 16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."

On Pharoah in particular, I read an excellent article recently, so I'm sharing it here: "Here we are able to draw several conclusions. First of all, in plagues 6-10, we hear four times that God has hardened Pharaoh’s heart. Can you see how this is a distinct change from plagues 1-5? In those stories, Pharaoh explicitly hardened his own heart (plagues 2 and 4), or the source of the hardening was ambiguous (plagues 1, 3, and 5). Interestingly, in the seventh plague of hail, we first see Pharaoh harden his own heart (Exodus 9:34), but afterward the narrator uses the ambiguous verb “became hard” to describe it. This means that all of the other uses of the ambiguous verb (plagues 1, 3, and 5) do not imply that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart, but just the opposite!

The Point
Why does the author use this back-and-forth technique in describing Pharaoh’s heart? It’s all part of the brilliant diagnosis of the human condition in this story, which is about the mysterious nature of human evil. God called Pharaoh to humble himself and acknowledge that God is his authority and that he cannot redefine good and evil on Egyptian terms. Pharaoh’s response (see Exodus 5:1-2) is to balk at the God of Israel. After this, God gives Pharaoh five opportunities to repent and humble himself. And five times Pharaoh hardens his heart. "

From: https://bibleproject.com/blog/pharaohs-heart-grew-harder/

And so, even in this case, it was Pharaoh who hardened his heart first, and refused many opportunities God gave him. And so, beyond a point, knowing Pharaoh would not repent anymore, God allowed his heart to be hardened further, and used him for His own purposes. That's how I would read it. How would you, Cameron?

Imo, it doesn't mean God never gave Pharaoh any chance to be saved or repent. He just refused to, and beyond a point, God allows man to choose what he wants. As one Pastor put it: "Some say to God: "Thy Will be done". Others, after refusing God for a long time, God says to them: "All right then, have it your way". I believe that happened to Judas and Pharaoh etc.

God Bless.