Jesus is God

[ThewindBlows]

To begin with: we know that God is spirit, and spirit doesn't have flesh.

Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mathew 1:23 = God with us

It can be hard for the world to comprehend who Jesus father is and where Jesus came from, If you think of the virgin birth you can naturally wonder why there needed to be a virgin birth and then that which was born had to have had a father, Then he has a title the Son of God you can naturally see he came from God and his father is God

so let's trace it back a little further, Who is the Word of God = Jesus, What did God use to create the world = his Word, where do our words come from, scripture says our heart

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John also shows Jesus created everything

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

[ThewindBlows]

It’s a parallel to Genesis 1:1 where God spoke creation into existence using words. So Jesus is the culmination of the word of God made flesh who came from God. The scriptures that testify of Jesus are the words of God. To me it’s just a way of saying that God’s words are part of who He is.

We need God to live, not bread only. God’s words are powerful, hence Jesus said this:

Matthew 4
4Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

My discussion with you here started with you asking for a verse where Jesus says he is God, because you know Jesus doesn't say that exact phrase, its a common line Muslims use in debates, the problem arises when you try and separate peoples words from the person

In reality you can't do something or say something then turn around and say it wasn't me, So there is your proof you asked for in your own words, you said "Gods words are part of who he is" and Jesus has the title The Word of God, So he has to be God....right? I have a feeling there is a twist to come

 

[Magenta]

Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Mathew 1:23 = God with us

It can be hard for the world to comprehend who Jesus father is and where Jesus came from, If you think of the virgin birth you can naturally wonder why there needed to be a virgin birth and then that which was born had to have had a father, Then he has a title the Son of God you can naturally see he came from God and his father is God

so let's trace it back a little further, Who is the Word of God = Jesus, What did God use to create the world = his Word, where do our words come from, scripture says our heart

1 John 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John also shows Jesus created everything

John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

1 Timothy 3:16

 

[Runningman]

My discussion with you here started with you asking for a verse where Jesus says he is God, because you know Jesus doesn't say that exact phrase, its a common line Muslims use in debates, the problem arises when you try and separate peoples words from the person

Thank you for pointing out how this discussion began. Jesus' claim or denial of being God is actually critical. As Jesus said, "scripture cannot be broken." It's a way of saying "where the Bible is silent remain silent. Where the Bible speaks, speak." So the burden of proof to show Jesus is God would require Jesus claiming such.

I'm not sure what your point about Muslims is. I don't think asking for proof is a uniquely Muslim thing, but rather it should be a human thing.

In reality you can't do something or say something then turn around and say it wasn't me, So there is your proof you asked for in your own words, you said "Gods words are part of who he is" and Jesus has the title The Word of God, So he has to be God....right? I have a feeling there is a twist to come

I recommend just seeing what Jesus said to answer your question. No twists, just the Bible. You're free to twist it if you wish, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Jesus didn't make up any of his teachings, use his own words, or speak on his own authority; it all came from God. (See also John 12:49 and John 14:24)
John 7
16“My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me.

Jesus didn't come to do his own will, but rather he came to do God's will. (See also Luke 22:42 and John 6:38)
John 4
34Jesus explained, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to finish His work.

Jesus did not make his own judgements nor use his own power, but rather deferred to the One who sent him.(See also John 8:42)
John 5
30I can do nothing by Myself; I judge only as I hear. And My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Jesus' knowledge was not of himself, it belongs to God:
Mark 13
32No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

John 7
16“My teaching is not My own,” Jesus replied. “It comes from Him who sent Me.

Jesus said that only those who do the will of his Father will enter the kingdom of heaven:
Matthew 7
21Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Jesus said only God is good:
Mark 10
18“Why do you call Me good?” Jesus replied. “No one is good except God alone.


All of these things came from God the Father, not Jesus. That's very clear.

So based on these things... would you say Jesus is equal to his Father or do you see Jesus is claiming to be God or is he kinda denying it? Please elaborate if you don't mind. Thank you.

 

[Webers.Home]

.

God was manifest in the flesh

• John 1:18 . . No one has ever seen God

• John 4:24 . . God is spirit

• 1Tim 6:16 . . unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see.
_

 

[Mem]

I don't know. The Bible is a bit vague about if Jesus had the Holy Spirit prior to his water baptism or if the Holy Spirit descending upon Jesus served a different function. Sometimes in Acts, people could be "filled" with the Holy Spirit more than once. Sola scriptura simply says the Holy Spirit came upon Jesus at his water baptism and Jesus didn't do any miracles prior to this according to standard Biblical canon.

My main point is that this shows the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinctly different. If they were exactly the same then what's with Jesus getting water baptized to do what God requires, then the Holy Spirit descending upon him, and a voice from heaven calling Jesus His Son? What do you make of that? Is that all the same person?

I view Jesus baptism was to show them to each be wholy noble as God, transcendant, yet wholy humble as man, imminent. That is, each individual being of the same ego, Name, personality, character, identity and all the synonyms for identity.
Hebrews 1:3 ...the exact representation of His nature...

 

[ThewindBlows]

Thank you for pointing out how this discussion began. Jesus' claim or denial of being God is actually critical. As Jesus said, "scripture cannot be broken." It's a way of saying "where the Bible is silent remain silent. Where the Bible speaks, speak." So the burden of proof to show Jesus is God would require Jesus claiming such.

I'm not sure what your point about Muslims is. I don't think asking for proof is a uniquely Muslim thing, but rather it should be a human thing.

I showed you but you ignored the context of Almighty and talked about letters, but that's what Christianity is about, Faith, in Jesus, Who do you say Jesus is, everyone has to come to that conclusion individually

All of these things came from God the Father, not Jesus. That's very clear.

So based on these things... would you say Jesus is equal to his Father or do you see Jesus is claiming to be God or is he kinda denying it? Please elaborate if you don't mind. Thank you.

Sure, It is a big topic even the angels in heaven where desiring to look into these things, But to answer your question even in the flesh in the likeness of man Jesus thought it not robbery to be equal with God

God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself (2 Corinthians 5:19) Jesus was born as a man like us, born under the Law, Jesus while in the flesh had to be obedient to the Law otherwise he would sin and if he sinned = the wages of sin is death, But look

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus was without sin and death couldn't keep hold of him and he raised from the grave, so now that Jesus has ascended to Heaven, He proclaimed rightly so he is Almighty, So he proved it, By being in the flesh tempted on all sides but without Sin he defeated death and showed he is the saviour of man

Isiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

 

[williamjordan]

I agree with a good percentage of what you said. I have nothing significant to add to it.

So we agree that Father and Son are distinct persons, right? I just want to confirm so that I'm not later accused of arguing something to the contrary. Once that has been confirmed, I will refer to texts which speak of Jesus' consubstantiality with the Father, and show how Mark 10:18 plays into that discussion.

 

[Runningman]

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Jesus was without sin and death couldn't keep hold of him and he raised from the grave, so now that Jesus has ascended to Heaven, He proclaimed rightly so he is Almighty, So he proved it, By being in the flesh tempted on all sides but without Sin he defeated death and showed he is the saviour of man

Isiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I agree that Jesus was without sin. The passage you quoted proves Jesus is equal to God in terms of sinlessness.

When Jesus said “I and my Father are one,” or when Jesus talked about being in his Father, Jesus was referring to being equally sinless, but he wasn’t saying he is God and the passage you quoted doesn’t say Jesus is God either.

Similarly, when we are in Christ we are viewed as legally sinless via being one with Christ. That’s what being in Christ is. We gain substitutionary righteousness via Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21God made him who had no sin to be sin bfor us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

 

[wattie]

I agree that Jesus was without sin. The passage you quoted proves Jesus is equal to God in terms of sinlessness.

When Jesus said “I and my Father are one,” or when Jesus talked about being in his Father, Jesus was referring to being equally sinless, but he wasn’t saying he is God and the passage you quoted doesn’t say Jesus is God either.

Similarly, when we are in Christ we are viewed as legally sinless via being one with Christ. That’s what being in Christ is. We gain substitutionary righteousness via Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21
21God made him who had no sin to be sin bfor us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Runningman.. who did the Jews think Jesus was when they wanted to stone him?

How is Jesus able to forgive sin of someone who hasn't directly sinned against Him? Even forgive sin of groups of people?

How can He accept worship?

 

[Runningman]

Runningman.. who did the Jews think Jesus was when they wanted to stone him?

They thought Jesus was a teacher with a following.

How is Jesus able to forgive sin of someone who hasn't directly sinned against Him? Even forgive sin of groups of people?

In Mark 2, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins on Earth by God:

Mark 2
10But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” He said to the paralytic, 11“I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”

How can He accept worship?

Jesus was worshipped as the Son of the Almighty. I am not aware of anyone ever worshipping Jesus and called him God.

Matthew 14:33
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

 

[Runningman]

So we agree that Father and Son are distinct persons, right? I just want to confirm so that I'm not later accused of arguing something to the contrary. Once that has been confirmed, I will refer to texts which speak of Jesus' consubstantiality with the Father, and show how Mark 10:18 plays into that discussion.

Okay, you're free to just lay out anything you feel like saying. Like I said, I agreed with a "good percentage" of what you said. I have a feeling we're going to understand who the Father and Son are completely different though. Don't worry, I'll provide scripture for everything I believe in as always.

 

[Runningman]

I view Jesus baptism was to show them to each be wholy noble as God, transcendant, yet wholy humble as man, imminent. That is, each individual being of the same ego, Name, personality, character, identity and all the synonyms for identity.
Hebrews 1:3 ...the exact representation of His nature...

Interesting perspective, I've never heard it put that way before but it makes sense. I think Jesus viewed getting water baptized as something God requires though.

Matt 3
15Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Matt 21
24Jesus replied, “I will also ask you one question. If you answer me, I will tell you by what authority I am doing these things.
25John’s baptism—where did it come from? Was it from heaven, or of human origin?”

 

[Cameron143]

They thought Jesus was a teacher with a following.



In Mark 2, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins on Earth by God:

Mark 2
10But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” He said to the paralytic, 11“I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”



Jesus was worshipped as the Son of the Almighty. I am not aware of anyone ever worshipping Jesus and called him God.

Matthew 14:33
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

If you understood how vehemently a fundamental Jew was about there being one God...hear, O Israel, the Lord your God is one God...you would understand why they hated Jesus and wanted to stone Him. The Orthodox Jews have no concept of a triune God.

 

[Webers.Home]

.
•. John 10:30 . . I and my Father are one.

The Greek word for "one" in that verse is the same Greek word at John
17:22 which says:

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one"

I think it's best understood as unity rather than identical sameness.

John 10:30 is a good verse to show that Jesus wasn't the independent
radical that quite a few folks think he was, rather, he and his Father were
allies rather than opposites.

For example: Had Jesus been present when God flooded the world--
drowning every man, woman, and child but eight --Jesus would've approved.
Had Jesus been present when God incinerated the degenerate folks of
Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus would've approved. Had Jesus been present
when God slew all the firstborn of man and beast in Egypt, Jesus would've
approved.

• John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do
the will of Him who sent me.

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, I do always those things
that please Him.

Jesus spoke of a glory in John 17:22 that works to unifies his followers with
one heart, one mind, and one purpose. Whatever anyone might think of that
glory, it's no doubt the cat's meow for Christians and worth having, in point of
fact; I'd go so far as to say essential.
_

 

[wattie]

.
•. John 10:30 . . I and my Father are one.

The Greek word for "one" in that verse is the same Greek word at John
17:22 which says:

"I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as
we are one"

I think it's best understood as unity rather than identical sameness.

John 10:30 is a good verse to show that Jesus wasn't the independent
radical that quite a few folks think he was, rather, he and his Father were
allies rather than opposites.

For example: Had Jesus been present when God flooded the world--
drowning every man, woman, and child but eight --Jesus would've approved.
Had Jesus been present when God incinerated the degenerate folks of
Sodom and Gomorrah, Jesus would've approved. Had Jesus been present
when God slew all the firstborn of man and beast in Egypt, Jesus would've
approved.

• John 6:38 . . I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do
the will of Him who sent me.

• John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, I do always those things
that please Him.

Jesus spoke of a glory in John 17:22 that works to unifies his followers with
one heart, one mind, and one purpose. Whatever anyone might think of that
glory, it's no doubt the cat's meow for Christians and worth having, in point of
fact; I'd go so far as to say essential.
_

Jesus doing things by the Father .. does not make Him lesser than the Father.

Look at Revelation. Jesus is put on equal footing to Holy Spirit and given terms which are earlier given to the Father... 'Alpha and Omega'

Jesus was called 'Immanuel' God with us. He was called God manifest in the flesh.

He is not lesser than the Father.

 

[wattie]

They thought Jesus was a teacher with a following.



In Mark 2, Jesus was given authority to forgive sins on Earth by God:

Mark 2
10But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins...” He said to the paralytic, 11“I tell you, get up, pick up your mat, and go home.”



Jesus was worshipped as the Son of the Almighty. I am not aware of anyone ever worshipping Jesus and called him God.

Matthew 14:33
33Then those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

If He accepts worship.. that's fully God status.

Having power to forgive sin of those who haven't directly sinned against Him... that's fully God status.

Do you know what would have happened if Jesus had just said 'I am God' early on?

He would probably have been crucified at the wrong time. His disciples would probably have been captured at the wrong time.

It would affect the coinciding of the veil being torn in the temple and the great earthquake happening. Plus other problems.

Jesus Himself may not have been greatly affected by saying 'I am God' ... but those around Him would..and the events that needed to happen before the crucifixion would.

 

[TheLearner]

“define intercession

the action of intervening on behalf of another.”

brother God looked through earth and there was no man worthy to intercede and this is what he decided

“For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:12, 15-17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So who is the intercessor ? Did God become a man and intercede for man because no man was worthy or not ?

The New Testament is a revelation of the same Old Testament God Jesus is God come to save us

it’s like your saying God is three but you are looking at it backwards

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God has manifested himself three different ways in the heavenly father , the son , and the holt ghost they are not three seperate entities it is the one God whom manifested himself in the Old Testament as he did , in the gospel of the son , and in the New Testament through his spirit

think of it this way your saying the holt spirit is not Jesus they are two but look

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus spirit is the holy spirit to say Jesus spirit is a seperate person from Jesus is sort of ridiculous.

are you saying a persons spirit isn’t the person ?

But my point is this

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“the Spirit of his Son”

“the Spirit of God”

“the Spirit of Christ, “

thats just one spirit not three God is one the spirit of Jesus the son is the spirit of God that dwells in believers or in other words the holy ghost

God the father Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are the three ways God has made himself known To us

The father of creation In the ot , in the gospel in the son , then afterwards in his spirit

they aren’t three people it’s one manifesting himself three times in three ways specific to the plan of redemption Jesus is how God is putting his spirit in us

at he intercessor is God made flesh who became the high priest ( intercessor ) he literally is Gods right arm that’s why you see him appear at Gods right hand after he lived died and rose

God is one brother that’s not something we should avoid his spirit is the holy spirit to say Gods spirit is a different person is just not workable he is one and you can see him when you look at Jesus you want to know the father you meet Jesus , you want to receive the holt spirit of Christ Jesus the lord , you believe in Jesus

Brother, Friend that looks like a nice aside track, but does not address the fact that both the Holy Spirit and Jesus prays for us in Romans 8 which was my main point. God Bless All and thanks.

 

[TheLearner]

“define intercession

the action of intervening on behalf of another.”

brother God looked through earth and there was no man worthy to intercede and this is what he decided

“For our transgressions are multiplied before thee, and our sins testify against us: for our transgressions are with us; and as for our iniquities, we know them; Yea, truth faileth; and he that departeth from evil maketh himself a prey:

and the LORD saw it, and it displeased him that there was no judgment. And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloke.

So shall they fear the name of the LORD from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the LORD shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:12, 15-17, 19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So who is the intercessor ? Did God become a man and intercede for man because no man was worthy or not ?

The New Testament is a revelation of the same Old Testament God Jesus is God come to save us

it’s like your saying God is three but you are looking at it backwards

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God has manifested himself three different ways in the heavenly father , the son , and the holt ghost they are not three seperate entities it is the one God whom manifested himself in the Old Testament as he did , in the gospel of the son , and in the New Testament through his spirit

think of it this way your saying the holt spirit is not Jesus they are two but look

“And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus spirit is the holy spirit to say Jesus spirit is a seperate person from Jesus is sort of ridiculous.

are you saying a persons spirit isn’t the person ?

But my point is this

“But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“the Spirit of his Son”

“the Spirit of God”

“the Spirit of Christ, “

thats just one spirit not three God is one the spirit of Jesus the son is the spirit of God that dwells in believers or in other words the holy ghost

God the father Jesus the son and the Holy Spirit are the three ways God has made himself known To us

The father of creation In the ot , in the gospel in the son , then afterwards in his spirit

they aren’t three people it’s one manifesting himself three times in three ways specific to the plan of redemption Jesus is how God is putting his spirit in us

at he intercessor is God made flesh who became the high priest ( intercessor ) he literally is Gods right arm that’s why you see him appear at Gods right hand after he lived died and rose

God is one brother that’s not something we should avoid his spirit is the holy spirit to say Gods spirit is a different person is just not workable he is one and you can see him when you look at Jesus you want to know the father you meet Jesus , you want to receive the holt spirit of Christ Jesus the lord , you believe in Jesus

You left out, "
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"" which I moved up before the word list. There are many examples of people in the Bible praying for others. Something like, "if there be only five rigtheous in the city..."

in·ter·ces·sion
/ˌin(t)ərˈseSHən/
Learn to pronounce
noun
the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
Similar:
mediation
intermediation
negotiation
arbitration
conciliation
intervention
interposition
involvement
action
pleading
petition
entreaty
supplication
good offices
agency
shuttle diplomacy
mediatorship
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"

 

[Webers.Home]

.

Jesus doing things by the Father .. does not make Him lesser than the
Father.

• John 14:28 . . My Father is greater than I.

• 1Cor 15:28 . . The Son himself will be made subject to Him who put
everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

You know what's ironic? The Jehovah's Witnesses, who oppose Jesus' divine
status, have a far better grasp of his humanity than the average rank and
file pew warmer who can't seem to get it thru their thick skulls that Jesus was
an honest-to-gosh, verifiable, bona fides h.sapiens. They're typically okay
with him as a divine hominid, but not as a real man.
_