Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:6-7 ... Paul taught this wisdom to those who were perfect:

1 Corinthians 2:

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory

The word "perfect" is translated from the Greek word teleios which means mature, full grown.


Then we read in vs 9:

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:14 relates to the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory ... things which God hath prepared for them that love Him ...

These things are yet future. We have not yet entered into our glory. We will be glorified when we stand before the Lord Jesus Christ and see Him face to face ... at that time we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.


Because some of the believers in the church at Corinth were carnal (1 Cor 3:1), the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom was not taught to them. Paul met separately with those who were more mature and taught them the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom. To include the gospel (which could be and was taught to the full congregation at Corinth) is your error. However, I have shared this fact with you in the past and you have rejected this truth ... to your own detriment.
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Again the natural man cannot receive or understand the Spiritual things of God, like the Gospel, its in the spiritual things catagory. Paul speaking of the Gospel says this 1 Cor 9:11

If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

Hes meaning the Gospel, and the natural man cannot understand them because they must be spiritually discerned, and the natural man doesn't have the spirit of God

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

brightfame52 said:

Yes a person is a son of God before they are born again.
nope ... before a person is born again, he/she is not a child of God.




brightfame52 said:
It was because they were already sons, that God sent the Spirit into their hearts to renew them, and give them spiritual life.
Read the verse again, brightfame52:

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Because ye are sons – already born again.

God sent forth the Spirit of His Son – this is in addition to Holy Spirit born within at the time a person is born again (regenerated).

And it conforms to what the Lord Jesus Christ said:

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


First, born again of Holy Spirit ... then keep My Words and My Father will love him and we [Father and Son] will come unto him and make Our abode with him.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit dwell within the born again one ... magnificent truth to those who are born again.

Again a person who Christ died for is a child of God when they are born into this world a sinner, just like they are a sheep when born into this world a sinner, now they are born experientially a lost son, or a lost sheep at demonstrated in the Luke 15 parables of the Lost son and the Lost sheep Lk 15:4-7

4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?

5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.

6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.

7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

Lk 15:21-24

21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:

23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:

24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

 

[brightfame52]

another lie from the keyboard of brightfame52.

I would ask you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I "deny the testimony of Christs resurrection" but I know it would be useless. You would again deflect, finagle, and cast more aspersions on me.

btw ... it has not escaped the notice of all who read this thread that you have still not addressed the issue concerning the verb tense in Romans 4:5.

And you will not address it until you examine the veracity of your erroneous dogma ... which is something you are unwilling to do because it is the foundation upon which you stand at this point in your life. When you are ready to stand upon the firm foundation of the truth of God's Word, you will find it so much more stable than the shifting sands of TULIP.
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Oh Yes, you deny the testimony of the resurrection of Christ which gives proof that the ones Christ was delivered up for, for their sins, that when He rose again, it was for or because of their Justification Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification

Now you deny this sacred testimony and say no they not justified until they believe.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

whoever Christ died for, that Death for them Justified them
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Thayer's clearly states that the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 2 Cor 5:19, 1 John 2:2 refers to definition #5.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 2 Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2

All these apply to the Justified.

You actually deny Justification by Faith
more lies from the keyboard of brightfame52. You feel better now?
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Yes you do deny Justification by Faith, for Faith receives the testimony of the Spirit that Christ has Justified us by His Blood, which you deny.

 

[brightfame52]

You don't compare scripture with scripture. You compare Scripture with your dogma and where Scripture does not align with your dogma, you toss Scripture out the window.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where your dogma is in error, you are to let go of the error and believe Scripture.





Read a couple of verses before John 8:47, brightfame52:

John 8:

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.


vs 45-46 – Jesus spoke truth to them and they did not believe Him. In other words, they rejected the truth ... not because they could not hear but they heard and suppressed the truth in unrighteousness just like we read in Rom 1:18-32.

From Pulpit Commentary:

He is here contemplating this wide class, who are scattered through all time and places, with susceptible minds capable of hearing freely, and believing when they hear, the words of God. For this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God; i.e. seeing that ye do not hear the words of God, it is evident that ye are not of God. They are not excluded from becoming so by any irreversible fate, but their present obtuseness of spiritual perception, their refusal to accept truth on its clearest exposition, shows that they are not born of God​

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Again, Jesus made it clear, who it is that hears the words of God Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Otherwise man cant hear spiritually Jn 8:43

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You need to be regenerated to hear and believe.

Another claim which thus far you have not proven according to Scripture, even though we are 143+pages into this thread.

All you have provided is your manipulation of the text which, if God had written the words in the order you insist, I would agree with you. Since God did not write the words in the order you insist, I do not agree with you. I will stick with Scripture.

Whenever scripture says anything about a person believing in the context of salvation, the one believing was regenerated, a new creature, else they cant hear nor believe spiritually unto a spiritual conversion.

Scripturally unsound dogma.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Hear ... then believe ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = regeneration.

You manipulate Scripture to your own detriment.

Just believe what is written and leave the error of your dogma.
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[reneweddaybyday]

A person who Christ died for

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Justified before God before they believe

Scripturally unsound statement.

God does not need you to explain what He wrote in Scripture. God needs you to believe what He wrote without turning to your erroneous dogma to understand what He wrote.

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

In order for your understanding to be correct, you have to rearrange the words to fit your stated belief. Just read Scripture as written by the Author of Scripture. If God had wanted the verse to read "And God counted Abraham righteous and Abraham believed", God would have written the verse in that order.

Abraham had heard the Gospel back in Gen 12

So now you're saying that in Romans 4:3, when God wrote:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

God was not referring to the record in Genesis 15 where God said

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

God was referring to the record in Genesis 12? That's what you want me to believe???

I know you still dont understand these things because unfortunaetly you are blind

not so blind that I do not see your manipulation of Scripture ... redirecting what is written in Romans 4:3 to a record unrelated to what was intended by the Author of Scripture.
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[reneweddaybyday]

More vitriol from the mind/keyboard of brightfame52.

That I do not agree with your erroneous dogma does not mean that I "don’t believe" God is the One Who justifies. Your accusation is just deflection on your part and an avoidance tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.

You really need to stop with the personal attacks, brightfame52.

Address the issues raised and stop your ad hominem fallacious attacks ... they do nothing to add to the discussion.

You say you believe it, but you really don’t

Again, that I do not agree with your erroneous dogma does not mean that I "don’t believe" God is the One Who justifies. Your accusation is just deflection on your part and an avoidance tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Yes a person Christ died for is born into the world justified before God. Scripture is Rom 5:9 they were Justified by His Blood.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now = Greek word nyn ... now justified

Notice God did not write "Much more then, being then justified by His blood". God wrote now justified because of what is written in Romans 5:1.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

What you think that Christ didnt shed His Blood for an individual and their sins until they were born ?

That I have never stated what you claim will not stop you from endlessly claiming I said that ...

What you think that Christ didnt shed His Blood for an individual and their sins until they were born ? Thats dumb

consider the source ...
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[reneweddaybyday]

God having worked out His purpose in the Lord Jesus Christ in eternity past does not mean you do not have to believe what God has written in His Word.

Romans 3:24, which you ripped from its context, has been utilized by you to support a dogma never intended by the Author of Scripture.

Romans 3:

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

If you (or anyone else for that matter) do not believe what God promises in His Word, you will not receive the promise.

In other words, a person can hear the Word of God and reject what God has provided. In that case, the person does not receive ... not because God did not provide the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, but because the person rejected that which God has provided for all mankind (the world, the whole world).

You are wasting up time and resources

wow ... telling you the truth of Scripture is "wasting up time and resources" ???

forgiveness of sins comes before faith, before believing.

God having worked out His eternal purpose in eternity past does not negate the need for faith on the part of mankind.

Acts 26:18

to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

God opens their eyes, spiritual eyes so they can begin to see, then thy receive the light of the Gospel, the knowledge of their forgiveness

We all agree God has provided forgiveness of sins through His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ. God did this in eternity past.

Then you claim "thy receive the light of the Gospel, the knowledge of their forgiveness".

That is not what is written. The verse states that they may receive forgiveness of sins.

The forgiveness of sins is tied directly to faith that is in me (the Lord Jesus Christ – Acts 26:15).

After hearing the gospel, if the hearer does not place his/her faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (which is the only provision for forgiveness of sins), he/she will not receive the forgiveness. Not because it is not available to them, but because they reject that which God provided.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Again, does the world of 2 Cor 5:19 Paul identifies there, does it have any sins charged to it ? Yes or No ?

Again, the world of 2 Corinthians 5:19 is the world we currently live in.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:19, God has committed unto us the word of reconciliation. If there is no sin, what need is there for God to commit unto us the word of reconciliation?

Here is what God says about this world we now live in:

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
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[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52, you have again botched your Post 2840:

Everyone Christ died for is Justified by His blood Rom 5:9 and so they will be given Faith to believe it.
more manipulation of Scripture. The Lord Jesus Christ died for the world ... the whole world ... and whosoever believeth in Him should not perish.

Some folks believe the lie of the adversary and end up being cast into the lake of fire due to their own decision to reject that which God has so freely provided for them to be saved.

God's stated desire:

Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die ...

brightfame52 said:
They have been eternally delivered from the penalty of sin which is death. Now you deny this !
Quit ignoring the point, brightfame52.

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].

I do not deny that verse. The Lord Jesus Christ obtained eternal redemption. Period.

The words "for us" were added to the text. The verse reads as follows:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.

Now, you want to include the words "for us" in order to manipulate the text to mean something never intended by the Author of Scripture? That is on you and I do not have to go there with you.

I will read the verse as intended by the Author and I absolutely believe the Lord Jesus Christ entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. Period.

Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...


New International Version:

Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.


English Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.


King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.


New King James Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.


New American Standard Bible:

Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.


American Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


English Revised Version:

Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.


International Standard Version:

Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.

You really need to learn to submit your posts properly so that you do not include statements made by others as if you had made the statement.
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[reneweddaybyday]

the Gospel, its in the spiritual things catagory.

nope ... you want to claim the gospel is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom? I have shared with you the truth of 1 Cor 2:6-14 and you reject. That is on you.

Then you go around spreading the lie of the adversary that folks "cannot receive or understand ... the Gospel". Again, that is on you.

Your failure to comprehend the point is because you equate all of Scripture to be the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom of 1 Cor 2:7 (which is what 1 Cor 2:13-14 speaks of).

Not all of Scripture is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom (1 Cor 2:7).

Some of Scripture recites history and no "spiritual discernment" is required in order to comprehend what is written.

That you reject this truth does not change the fact that it is true.

Here is a link to a secular site (UCL - London's Global University) which references Scripture and indicates the "Biblical account describes the relationship between an Assyrian king and his client rulers accurately":

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/sargon/essentials/countries/israel/


Here's another one (Wikipedia) which references Isaiah, 2 Kings, and Chronicles:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyrian_siege_of_Jerusalem


That you continue to claim that all of Scripture is the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom which natural man cannot understand/comprehend is error on your part.

You are teaching exactly what the devil wants taught. The last thing the devil wants is to have folks open Scripture and read it so that the kernels of truth embed themselves in the hearts of the readers where God brings increase.

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Again a person ... is a child of God when they are born into this world a sinner

nope ... you have provided absolutely no Scriptural support for this erroneous statement.

they are born experientially a lost son, or a lost sheep at demonstrated in the Luke 15 parables of the Lost son and the Lost sheep

The parables in Luke 15 do not support your claim.

In the case of the lost sheep, the one who wandered off already belonged to the shepherd.

In the case of the forgiving father, both sons were sons of the father. One wandered off and the father watched and waited for him to return. The son who remained home was chastened by his father for his poor attitude.

Your examples fail to establish your claim. Both would be similar to one who is already a believer but who has wandered off ... they are not indicative of one who is not a believer before wandering off.
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[reneweddaybyday]

you deny the testimony of Christs resurrection

another lie from the keyboard of brightfame52.

I would ask you to provide the post submitted by me wherein I "deny the testimony of Christs resurrection" but I know it would be useless. You would again deflect, finagle, and cast more aspersions on me.

btw ... it has not escaped the notice of all who read this thread that you have still not addressed the issue concerning the verb tense in Romans 4:5.

And you will not address it until you examine the veracity of your erroneous dogma ... which is something you are unwilling to do because it is the foundation upon which you stand at this point in your life. When you are ready to stand upon the firm foundation of the truth of God's Word, you will find it so much more stable than the shifting sands of TULIP.

you deny the testimony of the resurrection of Christ

Yes you do deny Justification by Faith

More lies from the keyboard of brightfame52. all you're doing is feeding your flesh when you lie like that.


Colossians 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds

Romans 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
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[reneweddaybyday]

Jesus made it clear, who it is that hears

Jesus makes clear that they do not hear because they reject.

John 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

They rejected Jesus. Because He told them truth they did not want to hear, they stopped their own ears.
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[brightfame52]

renewed

Another claim which thus far you have not proven according to Scripture, even though we are 143+pages into this thread.

All you have provided is your manipulation of the text which, if God had written the words in the order you insist, I would agree with you. Since God did not write the words in the order you insist, I do not agree with you. I will stick with Scripture.

Jesus told us that its the person who is of God that hears Gods words Jn 8:47 Thats regeneration. No spiritual hearing without spiritual life and ears.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Scripturally unsound dogma.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Hear ... then believe ... then sealed with that holy Spirit of promise = regeneration.

You manipulate Scripture to your own detriment.

Just believe what is written and leave the error of your dogma.

Again whenever scripture talks about hearing and believing the Gospel Truth that presupposes the ones doing that have been regenerated.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away

the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The world here are the elect of the world.

brightfame52 said:
Justified before God before they believe
Scripturally unsound statement.

The act of believing has never ever Justified one single person before God, but Jesus blood has Rom 5:9 and it was shed for many before they believed, hence they were justified before God by it before they believed, which the resurrection of Christ testified to Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

You deny the testimony of Christs resurrection, thats not good.

So now you're saying that in Romans 4:3, when God wrote:

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness

God was not referring to the record in Genesis 15 where God said

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness

God was referring to the record in Genesis 12? That's what you want me to believe???

Abraham had the Gospel preached to him of which revealed to him the righteousness of God Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So its clear that he Abraham had already Christ righteousness imputed to him, thats why God sent him the Gospel to reveal it to him. That righteousness of God which Abraham had, was made known to him by God given Faith. Faith reveals the righteousness, its not the righteousness.

brightfame52 said:
I know you still dont understand these things because unfortunaetly you are blind
not so blind that I do not see your manipulation of Scripture ... redirecting what is written in Romans 4:3 to a record unrelated to what was intended by the Author of Scripture.
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Oh no, you blind to them and cannot understand them, I must pity you, if not for the grace of God there go I.

 

[brightfame52]

Again, that I do not agree with your erroneous dogma does not mean that I "don’t believe" God is the One Who justifies. Your accusation is just deflection on your part and an avoidance tactic because you are unable to refute the central point.
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A deceived person doesn't know it, they think they believe the truth but they really dont, what they believe is a lie 2 Thess 2:11

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: