Jesus is God

wattie · Nov 23, 2022

This has been covered already, there is another at least one thread called 'Christ is God', but I think there is too much lowering of Jesus' status in these forums at the moment.

When the Pharisees wanted to stone Jesus, it was for blasphemy. Jesus was making Himself equal with God. So.. that does not mean that He *wasn't* God. It means He is equal. Jesus is distinct from the Father.. but not inferior. Inferiority.. and you are getting into Polytheism.

Jesus also says to them 'before Abraham was, I AM'... that is a clear reference to God talking to Moses at the burning bush. He is again making Himself equal with God.. and saying those words from God are His words. He is identifying Himself with Yahweh.. the national God of Israel... and beyond that.

Jesus saying 'The Father is greater than I'

With this verse, in the passage He ascends to be one with the Father later, after saying it.

If I say.. the president is greater than I.. is he an ontologically superior being?

No.. he is not. He is a flawed human being like I am, but he is in a greater position.

In Revelation.. this is Jesus' words to the churches.. it also the Holy Spirit's word to the churches.. and then Jesus is referred to with 'Alpha and Omega' terms.. which is used for the Father.

You can't avoid this! Jesus DID claim, indirectly to be God!

Then there is also the Jewish concept of agency.. the messager taking an originators message.. the agent becomes equal to the messenger. So when Jesus says 'by the hand of the Father'.. 'and I and the Father are one'.. things like that... to the Jews... that is saying 'I am God'.. His words are equal to the Fathers.

It goes on and on.. such as 'all the fullness of the Godhead dwells in Him bodily'

And also that Jesus accepted worship of Himself.

'Son' meaning 'image' 'expression' 'manifestation' of God.. not 'inferior, born out of'

If anyone is going to claim Jesus is not God.. equal to the Father.. that is not christianity. It's something else.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 26, 2022

wattie said:

yes brother it takes the revelation of the gospel ( especially johns account ) for someone to come to that correct conclusion.

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ashen we believe in Jesus we’re believing in the true God who is the father son and holy ghost manifest in one individual, Jesus Christ

each aspect of God serves a distinct purpose but he is one father son and holy spirit is one being manifest three ways

oyster67 · Nov 26, 2022

John 14:6
“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”

I'd say that makes Jesus pretty important.

Only by His blood.

JonathanBentley · Nov 26, 2022

Jesus is God is obvious in Scripture. If only people read. Also do you think newer translations remove Christ as God?

soberxp · Nov 26, 2022

God made male and female in his own image.
Jesus is the image of the invisible God.
God made Jesus in his own image.
Jesus and God are one,Because Jesus did all his will according to God's will.
We are made in God's image, but we follow our own will not word of God or the will of God.

wattie · Nov 26, 2022

JonathanBentley said:

Some do. I'm not sure which exactly.. but they add things so Jesus becomes 'a god' rather than equal to the Father.. fully God. That's what I think. Paraphrasing literal translations that lower His status

The_Watchers_2017 · Nov 27, 2022

Compare 1st Timothy with 1st Chapter of the Gospel of John:

swatfrog · Nov 27, 2022

JonathanBentley said:

the answer to that would be yes,so many changed and removed words,in some ,entire verses. alot of them have removed the word Begotten ,from Gods only Begotten son,and the say Gods only son. there are many that omit Acts; 8;37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.[may be found in a footnote]........which is the foundation of faith in Jesus....and so many more

Webers.Home · Nov 27, 2022

.
The way I see it: The Word, as creator, has always been God-- however, the
flesh that The Word became hasn't always been God.
_

arthurfleminger · Nov 27, 2022

So, who is Jesus?

Jesus Asked, “Who Do You Say That I Am?”
Jesus asked His Disciples an important question, “Who do men say that I Am?”

So, who is Jesus? Let’s take a look at His life and begin with a plain fact. Throughout all history, it would be hard to find anyone whose life has had a greater impact on the world than Jesus’.

A famous author, an atheist named, H.G. Wells said, “I am not a believer, but as an historian, I must confess that this penniless preacher from Nazareth is easily the most dominant person in all history.”

Jesus’ impact on the world is amazing when we recall that he lived 2,000 years ago in a small town. We know almost nothing about His first 30 years on earth. He never traveled far from home as an adult, never held political office, never wrote a book, never invented something, never discovered anything, never led an army into battle, and He never amassed great wealth.

The three short years of His public ministry were spent in small villages. He avoided publicity and commanded His followers not to tell anyone of the miracles that they saw Him perform. He never did any of the things that are considered to be historic.

Indeed, He is remembered by eyewitnesses for being rejected by his own people, that He died naked, penniless, shamed, virtually alone, and in great agony. He appeared to be a spectacular failure.

So how is it then that Jesus has become the most influential person in the history of the world? Christians see Him as their Savior, other religions regard Him as a holy man. Nations, Cultures, even people of no Christian faith have been deeply influenced by Jesus and His teachings.

So, what sets this man apart from the billions of others who have lived upon this earth? Jesus appears to be like some other religious figures, preaching love of neighbor and urging people to turn to God. But something separates Jesus from all the others.

Other religious leaders like Moses, Buddha, Mohammed, or Confucius had a message about God or about the right way of living. But the most they had to say about themselves was that they were prophets or wise teachers.

Unlike all these other religious figures Jesus made a far more radical claim. He claimed to be a more than a messenger from God, He claimed to be the actual Message, the Very Word of God. In short, His identity is the issue.

Jesus demanded the apostles make a decision and asked them, “Who do you say that I Am?”

Actually, the possible answers to this question are surprisingly limited.

Let’s look at some of the non-believer attempts to explain Jesus.

Many non-Christians see Jesus just as being a good man, a wise man, and a great teacher.

And yet, we miss the point entirely if we treat Jesus merely as a good and wise teacher, because Jesus made far greater claims. In fact, Jesus claimed, both directly and indirectly, to be God!

When Jesus claimed to forgive sins, He was making the claim that it was He was the One who was offended by men’s sins. He was criticized for forgiving sins, because only God can forgive sins. And his critics were right, Only God can forgive sins, and Jesus never disputed that.

Jesus claimed that before Abraham was, I Am. Understand what Jesus claimed here. Jesus claimed to be, “I Am”, and I Am is the Name by which God revealed Himself to Moses. Jesus is claiming to be the same eternal God who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. The religious leaders understood perfectly what He was saying and they picked up stones and attempted to kill Him for blasphemy. (John 8:58)

Jesus guided by word and example, forgiving, loving and caring for others. But far more than showing us the way, Jesus claimed that He is the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; and that no one can come to the Father but by Me.

When Jesus appeared to the Apostle Thomas, Thomas fell to the ground and worshiped Jesus praying to Him, My Lord and my God!” Being strict Jews, Jesus and the apostles worshiped only one God, but when Thomas fell down and worshiped Jesus as God, neither Jesus nor any of the other apostles corrected him. It is clear that none of Jesus disciples thought that Jesus was only a good and wise teacher.

Instead, Jesus accepted Thomas’ worship, acknowledging that He is the one God of Israel.

If Jesus’ claims of being God weren’t true, then He could not have been a wise man, a good man, or a great teacher. Instead He would have been an egomaniac, an evil and ignorant man who didn’t teach truth. But, if Jesus’ claims are true then He is certainly much more than a good and wise teacher.

Because Jesus taught that He is God and that we are not. He emphasized that He is from above and that we are from below, that we are sinners and that He is without sin, and that God is one. Jesus had a thoroughly Jewish concept of the God of Israel; and Jesus clearly stated a number of times, “I Am!”

One atheist, who converted to Christianity, was the great Protestant thinker and writer, C.S. Lewis. He wrote, “Jesus claimed to be God, so there are only two possibilities, either He is God or He is not God.” There are no other possibilities.

He added, if Jesus is not God, then we are left with two options: He either knows that He is not God and is a liar, or he is a lunatic and mistakenly thinks that He is God.

If Jesus was a liar, His lies were about the most important things imaginable. For a man to lie about such claims to His friends and followers, He would have to been deeply evil.

Liars tell lies in the pursuit of some gain. So, if Jesus was a liar, for what purpose? What does Jesus gain as a result of His lies? Earthly power? No, when men try to crown Him, He runs away. Status? No, He only wins the admiration of unimportant people; prostitutes, tax collectors, fishermen, along with the undying hatred of powerful men bent on His destruction.

When He is on trial for His life, why would He lie when asked if He is the Christ, the Son of God? He didn’t hesitate. He answered, I AM, (Mark 14:62) thereby inviting crucifixion, the most horrific death known to man. No liar, bent on earthly gain would do this.

So, if Jesus is not God and not a liar, we are left with only one other alternative; He was mistakenly insane. The trouble with this thought is that there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that Jesus was insane. Study His interactions with His enemies or His warm conversations with His friends. No one ever thought that He was a deranged man, out of His wits.

So, if Jesus wasn’t a compulsive liar or insane, it begins to look as though there is difficulty in accounting for Jesus in any other way but the way that Peter did. When Jesus asked him, “Who do you say that I AM.” Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

And Jesus asks the same question to all people, throughout time, He asks the same question of you and me, “Who do you say that, I Am?”

ONE FINAL THOUGHT

The Apostles were the people who knew Jesus best. And they believed His claims. They believed so much that they would go out into a world filled with wolves and spread Jesus’ Gospel. Except for John, all of them willingly gave up their lives in martyrdom for their Lord and God.

Magenta · Nov 27, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

yes brother it takes the revelation of the gospel ( especially johns account ) for someone to come to that correct conclusion.

“And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in
the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ashen we believe in Jesus we’re believing in the true God who is the father son and holy ghost manifest in one individual, Jesus Christ

each aspect of God serves a distinct purpose but he is one father son and holy spirit is one being manifest three ways

1 Timothy 3:16

Webers.Home · Nov 27, 2022

.

arthurfleminger said:

The "men" in that passage more than likely pertained to the Jews; so it can
be paraphrased: Who do Jews say that I am?

arthurfleminger said:

Jesus' followers were Jews; so their answer could be expected to be different
than a Gentile's answer.

"Peter answered: You are the Christ." (Mark 8:29)

The Christ means something different to Jews than it does the average
Gentile. In the Jews' world, Christ (a.k.a. Messiah, a.k.a. the anointed)
refers to the Davidic monarchy's ultimate successor.
_

wattie · Nov 27, 2022

Webers.Home said:

Well, while Jesus was in the flesh He said this:

(John 14:10) Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

(John 14:11) Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

Equality with the Father-- while in the flesh. How can Jesus be equal with the Father while in the flesh.. and not be God?

Also while Jesus was in the flesh-- He accepted worship.

Also while in the flesh-- He forgave sin of those who hadn't directly offended Him.. forgiving sin in the 3rd person. Only God can do that.

Also while in the flesh-- He was Head of the disciples, but not one of them. What does that make Jesus?

Also while in the flesh-- He performed miracles confirming is diety. He was doing it by the hand of the Father.. but that doesn' t mean He wasn't equal to the Father. For the Jews.. the agent doing the work of another has the same status as the originator.

While in the flesh--- He could have called down a legion of angels, by His own power to take out His adversaries.. in a blink of an eye. He didn't because of the plan He had laid down to be the Lamb of God.. and because of His grace.

So... I think what is going on here.. is while in the flesh He was more 'self limiting' rather than actually no longer being God. He was fully man also.. so that's the limiting part.. but He still possessed all the fully God abilities.

Magenta · Nov 27, 2022

Webers.Home said:

"But what about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter
answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Matthew 16:16

John 6:69 "We believe and know that You are the Holy One of God."

Pilgrimshope · Nov 27, 2022

Magenta said:

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.

The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this. The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭9:6-8‬ ‭

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-5, 9-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

…And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭1:8, 17-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Webers.Home · Nov 27, 2022

.
Most Christians will readily attest that Christ is/was fully God and fully Man
while in reality they actually believe he was/is some sort of divine hominid.

And then are those who see him as a demigod: 50% God plus 50% Man, but
demigods are a singularity whereas Christ is a plurality. He's an eternal
spirit being whose origin is currently unknown, while simultaneously a
temporal material being whose origin can be easily traced to the very dust
with which Adam was made, viz: two individuals. Nobody could possibly be
any more unusual than Christ: he's both a creator and a creature. Pretty amazing.
_

Cameron143 · Nov 27, 2022

All the "I am..." statements are Jesus equating Himself to God. They are actually restatements of OT text. For example:

I am the good Shepherd is an allusion to Psalm 23.

In each He was identifying an OT text that the Jews would have pictured the Father.
But no where is Jesus more direct than when He said...before Abraham was, I am.

So Jesus at least knew who He was.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 27, 2022

Cameron143 said:

he sure did

“Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip?

he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Pilgrimshope · Nov 27, 2022

Webers.Home said:

amen what a wonderful point you make leaves a person thinking in awe of just how much and how awesome he is

“For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭

all the fullness of the father son and Holy Ghost presented to mankind in one body and name Jesus who is also christ and became everything mankind needs to be saved and live with him forever

TheLearner · Nov 27, 2022

Pilgrimshope said:

Romans 8:34
Easy-to-Read Version
34 Who can say that God’s people are guilty? No one! Christ Jesus died for us, but that is not all. He was also raised from death. And now he is at God’s right side, speaking to him for us.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans 8:34

Romans 8:26
Easy-to-Read Version
26 Also, the Spirit helps us. We are very weak, but the Spirit helps us with our weakness. We don’t know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit himself speaks to God for us. He begs God for us, speaking to him with feelings too deep for words.

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Romans 8:26

define intercession

the action of intervening on behalf of another.
"through the intercession of friends, I was able to obtain her a sinecure"
"
the action of saying a prayer on behalf of another person.
"prayers of intercession"
"

Similar:
mediation
intermediation
negotiation
arbitration
conciliation
intervention
interposition
involvement
action
pleading
petition
entreaty
supplication
good offices
agency
shuttle diplomacy
mediatorship

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/intercession
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/intercession
an act or instance of interceding.
an interposing or pleading on behalf of another person.
a prayer to God on behalf of another.
Roman History. the interposing of a veto, as by a tribune.
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/intercession

Both Jesus in Heaven and The person of the Holy Spirit pray to God the Father. This makes three people in the godhead, not one person alone.

Jesus is God

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