Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[Nehemiah6]

I hate Calvinism yet I cannot deny what Scripture says about the elect, and I struggle with it.

Divine election is not complicated. Children of God are elected and predestinated to be perfected and glorified so that they are "conformed to the image of His Son". So the preaching of the Gospel leads to believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who believe are justified by grace through faith, then sanctified by the working of the Holy Spirit in their lives, and then finally perfected and glorified by Christ Himself. It is all spelled out in Romans 8:29,30.

The five points of TULIP are like dominoes. When you knock down one, they all fall down. Since Christ died for the sins of the whole world as the Lamb of God who took away the sin of the world (John 1:29), there goes your limited atonement. And then the whole house of cards collapses.

 

[CorrectiveLens]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

Don't be swayed by the so-called Christians on this site. Be swayed by the scripture presented and make your own decision.

Rom 9: 11 ( For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth)
This verse shows that God has a purpose in the history of mankind and is aware of past, present, and future. Those elected are not elected because of anything that they do but simply because God has chosen them by calling them.

Rom 9: 14-16 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For He saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then, it is NOT of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
God is sovereign, all powerful, all knowing, just, and merciful. All creation is His and He can do whatever He wants with it. When living creatures ( animals, plants, fish, insects, etc.) were first created, they were created as adults with the ability to procreate like kind ( with the same characteristics as the parent). Living beings with a free will can either please God by obedience or displease Him by disobedience. Adam and Eve chose ( with the influence of the serpent) to disobey God and follow their own heart. It seems that since Adam and Eve were the ones that sinned, they only should be punished. Where there is no law there is no transgression. When Adam and Eve ate the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they developed a conscience and were under the law of Consciencesness. That is why we are all born under the law and why the law is a curse because we are now responsible for all our thoughts and actions. The problem with mankind is puting self above all else. Self is his motivation for every thought and action. When a person recognizes that he is a sinner and is granted repentance by the Father, he turns to the Father for forgiveness who in turn provides the gospel for the forgiveness of sins through Jesus Christ through preaching. The person who trusts in Jesus has his sins washed away, but still has a sinful nature because his motivation is still self and the pleasures of the world and the flesh. That is where the Holy Spirit comes into action. The Holy Spirit of the Father and Son dwells in the person and the person becomes a new creature filled with divine love for God and man. With this new motivation of love for every thought and action, we are then obeying the Spirit of the Law and walking in the Spirit. Salvation is not just a mental thing, it is a state of being.

Romans 4: 15 "Because the law worketh wrath; for where no law is, there is no transgression.
What were the consequences of Adam and Eve eating the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil? God had warned them that if they did, they would surely die. This knowledge is our conscience and we are all born with it. This conscience that we are born with lets us know right from wrong and we are all under the law. The tendency of mankind is to put what benefits them first even at the expense of someone else, so we are all sinners ( even before the commandments given to Moses) and we all are condemned to death as soon as we are born. The choices for God are: 1. Let justice prevail and all humans go to hell, or 2. Save all humans, or 3. Save a few.
If God condemned all humans, He would not be merciful. If God saved all humans, there would be lawlessness on earth and in heaven. God's only choice to preserve His justice and His mercy is to save a few. The few are not chosen because of anything they do but because of God's will. God's plan for the chosen is to provide forgiveness of sins through belief in Jesus Christ and sanctification of the heart through His Holy Spirit.

Rom 9: 19-21 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth He yet find fault? For who hath resisted His will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
The answer to the question is: Man was created with a free will and through Adam and Eve's sin, is born with the knowledge of good and evil and are therefore under law. Our actions are motivated by our hearts. It is our heart that is judged not our actions. 1 Cor 13: 1-13 explains that anything done without love in your heart is meaningless. Of course a perfect heart will produce good fruit. It is the Holy Spirit of God that perfects us by filling our hearts with agape love ( the same type of love shared by the Father and Son). When we are motivated by this love, we are obeying the Spirit of the Law and the fruit is: accomplishing the Father's will.

Rom 9: 22-24 What if God, willing to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction; And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory. Even ( that is ) us , whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.
God puts up with mankind in order to display His justice on the vessels of wrath and His mercy on the vessels of mercy which He predestined.
God is not willing that any of these predestined vessels throughout human history perish so He is longsuffering.


Rom 11: 5-6 Even so, then, at this present time also, there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace;
In every generation God chooses whom to bestow His grace and use for His purpose. We cannot work to achieve this grace because grace is unmerited favor and if by works, then it would be merited. When you are baptized in the name of the Father, you are chosen to receive His grace. The Father chooses, the Son erases, and the Holy Spirit perfects.

 

[John146]

It would contradict scripture if your choice to believe is what CAUSED Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Gifts must be received, not forced...

 

[CorrectiveLens]

1 Peter 1: 2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God, the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Elect means chosen before you are even born, and humanity's time line is a rerun for God, the Father. As God, He is able to manipulate events for His pleasure and as evidence to all created beings in heaven and on earth of His justice and mercy and power and love. To sanctify means to fix or repair to perfection in order to achieve the purpose for its creation. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us by filling our hearts with agape love and we obey His commandments because we make choices motivated by love ( the Spirit of the Law). The sprinkling of the blood of Jesus occurs when you put your trust in Jesus death for the forgiveness of sins. You are baptized in the name of the Father when you are chosen to receive His grace. You are baptized in the name of the Son when you put your trust in Jesus, and you are baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit when God's Spirit enters your heart and fills it with love.


1 Cor 1:9 God is faithful by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
It is the Father who calls us to be part of the spiritual body of His Son and a member of His Family. Through the Father's Holy Spirit, we are able to be One with the Father and Son because we share the same motivation, the same love, and the same line of communication as Jesus.


1 Cor 1: 26-31 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called; But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not , to bring to nothing things that are, THAT NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE. But of (by) Him are ye in Christ Jesus,who of (by) God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption; That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
God chooses those that are called. His choice is not based on wisdom ( worldly), strength or might, status ( worldly or religious), or wealth. Paul is talking to lowly people and telling them that they are examples of the kind of people that God chooses. Those that are not chosen miss the boat completely because they want to take credit for their salvation whether it be because they walked the aisle or said a prayer or got baptized with water or attend church regularly or trusted in Jesus or try to be good enough. You might be doing all those things, but it is the Father who has changed you ( John 1: 13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.) and it is He that you should give glory and praise to as well as to Christ who is our God, Lord and Savior.

Eph 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,
The Father of Christ is also Christ's God. He is also our God and Father because when we receive His Holy Spirit, we become part of Christ's spiritual body and are privey to His spiritual blessings.

Eph 1: 4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him, in love.
Our Father chose us to be in Him ( as part of Christ's spiritual body) before the creation of our world. We are holy ( set apart from the rest of humanity for our Father's purpose) and will stand before Him without blame because of the love He has given us. We will have obeyed the Spirit of His Law when the motivation for all our actions is love.

Eph 1: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
As part of the Son's body, we become the Father's children. He predestined us unto this adoption of sons by Jesus Christ, not because of anything we have done, but according to the good pleasure of His will.

Eph 1: 6-7 To the praise of the glory of His grace, through which He hath made us acceptable in the Beloved; In whom we have redemption through His blood for the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace.
With great joy we praise and glorify our Father for His grace in making us accepted as part of Jesus' body in whom we have redemption through His blood for the forgiveness of sins. The Father has erased our sins and perfected our hearts.

Eph 1: 11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will.
We are predestined to fulfill God's purpose. Everything works out according to His will. As part of Jesus' body, we will inherit His blessings.

Col 3: 14-15 And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness. And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
The peace of God ruling in our hearts is the Father's Holy Spirit filling our hearts with love and our minds with understanding; knowing that as part of the body of Christ, you are in good hands.

Eph 2: 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
"For we are His workmanship" means that the Father is the one who creates christians as part of Jesus' body and fills their hearts with His Spirit of Love which results in good works. Good works ( making choices motivated by love for God and man) was commanded by the Father from the beginning.

John 17: 1,2,7 These words spoke Jesus, and lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, Father the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee. As thou hast given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as thou HAST GIVEN HIM. Now they have known, that all things, whatever thou hast given me, ARE OF( by or from) THEE.
Luke 22: 42-43 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done.
Luke 22: 42-43 describes the same situation in which Jesus' human side weakens and the Father sends an angel to strengthen Him. In the verses above Jesus is asking the Father for His Spirit to strengthen Him for the task ahead. By accomplishing His task, Jesus will be glorified by the Father. He will be changed back to a spiritual being and be filled with the Father's Holy Spirit. The Son in turn will collect members of His spiritual body by bestowing the Father's Holy Spirit on them so that they become sons of God and the Father is glorified by them.
Jesus was perfect and sinless and was not supposed to die. He allowed Himself to die so that according to the Father's justice, life is owed to Jesus. This life is given to His spiritual body which consists of all the spirits of the saints that are chosen by the Father. Christ as the head of His body is our God, our Savior, and our Lord, but the Father is the head and God of all including Christ.

 

[hornetguy]

I'm not the typical "Christian" because I don't call someone a Christian until they have received the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...

Then, it's a good thing that your opinion of other believers matters not at all.... what arrogance, to think that you have the right to decide whether another believer is a Christian or not. Shame on you....

Sorry @smmartin0507 , but that idiocy just had to be addressed. Welcome to CChat....

I don't get into a lot of worry and hand-wringing over "is this a work" or "if I do that, is that a work?"
I tend to just go by scripture... our salvation is a gift, un-deserved, from God (Grace)
There are many things we are told to do, and we should do them out of obedience... doing those things does not constitute "salvation by works" it merely shows that we are truly followers of Jesus...
from the book of James...

"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. "

 

[CorrectiveLens]

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man can come to Jesus unless he is chosen by the Father. The Greek word for "draw" is the same one used to describe in Acts: 16 what the masters of the possessed woman did to Paul and Silas after they cast out her demon: they drew (dragged) them into the market place. They were not enticed to go but were compelled to go. Once the Father chooses you, you become a different person and you willingly believe and trust in Jesus and seek to please the Father.

John 6: 65 And HE said, Therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of (by) my Father.
The desire to come to Christ is given by the Father.

Rom 8: 28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Those that are born again know that God has a purpose for their lives and that He is in control and His will is our reality. The Father knows the history in the time-line of human existence and has predestinated some to be conformed to the image of His Son. That image is to love the Father with all your mind, heart, and soul and your neighbors as yourself. Also, Jesus' bread was to do the Father's will and that should be our bread as well. You are baptized in the name of the Father when you are predestined and called by Him. When you are called by the Father, you will be baptized in the name of His Son for the remission of sins and be justified. When you are glorified, you are baptized in the name of His Holy Spirit and perfected.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All who the Father chooses will whole heartedly trust in Jesus , be filled with His Holy Spirit and have love for God and man.

John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
When baptized in the name of the Father, you are chosen by the Father and will receive His Holy Spirit and posses the same love in your heart that is shared by the Father and Son. We become One with the Father and Son because we have the same Spirit as a source of communication and knowledge from them.

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Our salvation is a gift from called and is not earned, lest any man should boast that he got saved because of his decisions or efforts. Man cannot give himself any credit at all for his salvation. All the credit goes to the Father who willed it and achieved it through Christ (who sits at the Father's right hand and does the Father's will). When we are born again, we become new creatures and are placed in the body of Christ and obey the Spirit of the Law which is to do everything with love in your heart which is what the Father wanted from the beginning.

Psalm 105: 43 And He brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness,
God chooses and experiences emotions.

Psalm 135: 4 For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself and Israel for His peculiar treasure.
Another example of God choosing.

Deut 7: 6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people who are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.
God chose to favor a people. The people had no influence on His choice.

Matt 24: 22, 24, 31 And except those days should be shortened ( talking about the tribulation), there should no flesh be saved; but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. For there shall arise false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elect are those chosen by God who will be given His Holy Spirit so that they will fulfill His purpose. A prophet is one that can communicate with God and there will be many false ones. God communicates through His Holy Spirit with every Christian. In the last day Christ will gather all those that are in Him ( part of His spiritual body) from all over the world and throughout all ages.

1 Peter 5: 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, greeteth you;
All members of the Church are chosen by God.

Col 3: 12-14 Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, tender mercies, ... And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness.
The saved are the elect of God and should show the fruit that comes with love.

John 15: 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
Jesus is telling His apostles that He is the one that chose them to follow Him, not they. The Father through Jesus is the one who chose because the Son does the Father's will and we are also chosen to propagate the good news of salvation and truth.

John 17: 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept , and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus kept the apostles that were chosen in the name of the Father except for Judas who was predestined in scripture.

John 17: 9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Those that are chosen by the Father to be part of Jesus' spiritual body belong to the Father because all contain the Father's Spirit including Jesus. All that posses the Holy Spirit of the Father belong to the heavenly family of God. The saved are given to the Son by the Father.

Acts 13: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Salvation is not only for the Jews but also for the Gentiles. Those that were predestined to eternal life believed. To be ordained to eternal life means to be set apart to achieve God's purpose and will for you.

Exodus 33 :9 And He said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee, and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
The Father reveals to Moses all His dealings with man and His people in the past as well as His plan of salvation when He shows mercy and grace to whomever He wants.

2 Thes 2: 13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Unto which He called you by our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We should give thanks to the Father for loving us by choosing us from the beginning to salvation through belief in the truth concerning Jesus and sanctification of the Holy Spirit of the Father which perfects us in love. After Jesus accomplished His mission, He went back to the Father to get a glorified body with Jesus as the head. This body is made up of the Father's Spirit and all who are saved receive this Spirit and become part of Jesus' spiritual body. When we are called by the Father through the preaching of others, we receive this glory ( Spirit) that is given to Christ

 

[Snacks]

John 6: 44 No man can come to me, except the Father, who hath sent me, draw him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man can come to Jesus unless he is chosen by the Father. The Greek word for "draw" is the same one used to describe in Acts: 16 what the masters of the possessed woman did to Paul and Silas after they cast out her demon: they drew (dragged) them into the market place. They were not enticed to go but were compelled to go. Once the Father chooses you, you become a different person and you willingly believe and trust in Jesus and seek to please the Father.

John 6: 65 And HE said, Therefore said I unto you that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of (by) my Father.
The desire to come to Christ is given by the Father.

Rom 8: 28-30 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose. For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, whom He did predestinate, them He also called; and whom He called, them He also justified; and whom He justified, them He also glorified.
Those that are born again know that God has a purpose for their lives and that He is in control and His will is our reality. The Father knows the history in the time-line of human existence and has predestinated some to be conformed to the image of His Son. That image is to love the Father with all your mind, heart, and soul and your neighbors as yourself. Also, Jesus' bread was to do the Father's will and that should be our bread as well. You are baptized in the name of the Father when you are predestined and called by Him. When you are called by the Father, you will be baptized in the name of His Son for the remission of sins and be justified. When you are glorified, you are baptized in the name of His Holy Spirit and perfected.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
All who the Father chooses will whole heartedly trust in Jesus , be filled with His Holy Spirit and have love for God and man.

John 17:11 Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
When baptized in the name of the Father, you are chosen by the Father and will receive His Holy Spirit and posses the same love in your heart that is shared by the Father and Son. We become One with the Father and Son because we have the same Spirit as a source of communication and knowledge from them.

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God- Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Our salvation is a gift from called and is not earned, lest any man should boast that he got saved because of his decisions or efforts. Man cannot give himself any credit at all for his salvation. All the credit goes to the Father who willed it and achieved it through Christ (who sits at the Father's right hand and does the Father's will). When we are born again, we become new creatures and are placed in the body of Christ and obey the Spirit of the Law which is to do everything with love in your heart which is what the Father wanted from the beginning.

Psalm 105: 43 And He brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness,
God chooses and experiences emotions.

Psalm 135: 4 For the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto Himself and Israel for His peculiar treasure.
Another example of God choosing.

Deut 7: 6-8 For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God; the Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto Himself, above all people who are upon the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people.
God chose to favor a people. The people had no influence on His choice.

Matt 24: 22, 24, 31 And except those days should be shortened ( talking about the tribulation), there should no flesh be saved; but for the elects sake those days shall be shortened. For there shall arise false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. And He shall send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
The elect are those chosen by God who will be given His Holy Spirit so that they will fulfill His purpose. A prophet is one that can communicate with God and there will be many false ones. God communicates through His Holy Spirit with every Christian. In the last day Christ will gather all those that are in Him ( part of His spiritual body) from all over the world and throughout all ages.

1 Peter 5: 13 The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, greeteth you;
All members of the Church are chosen by God.

Col 3: 12-14 Put on, therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, tender mercies, ... And above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness.
The saved are the elect of God and should show the fruit that comes with love.

John 15: 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit,
Jesus is telling His apostles that He is the one that chose them to follow Him, not they. The Father through Jesus is the one who chose because the Son does the Father's will and we are also chosen to propagate the good news of salvation and truth.

John 17: 12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept , and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition, that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus kept the apostles that were chosen in the name of the Father except for Judas who was predestined in scripture.

John 17: 9 I pray for them; I pray not for the world, but for them whom thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Those that are chosen by the Father to be part of Jesus' spiritual body belong to the Father because all contain the Father's Spirit including Jesus. All that posses the Holy Spirit of the Father belong to the heavenly family of God. The saved are given to the Son by the Father.

Acts 13: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Salvation is not only for the Jews but also for the Gentiles. Those that were predestined to eternal life believed. To be ordained to eternal life means to be set apart to achieve God's purpose and will for you.

Exodus 33 :9 And He said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee, and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy.
The Father reveals to Moses all His dealings with man and His people in the past as well as His plan of salvation when He shows mercy and grace to whomever He wants.

2 Thes 2: 13-14 But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. Unto which He called you by our gospel to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
We should give thanks to the Father for loving us by choosing us from the beginning to salvation through belief in the truth concerning Jesus and sanctification of the Holy Spirit of the Father which perfects us in love. After Jesus accomplished His mission, He went back to the Father to get a glorified body with Jesus as the head. This body is made up of the Father's Spirit and all who are saved receive this Spirit and become part of Jesus' spiritual body. When we are called by the Father through the preaching of others, we receive this glory ( Spirit) that is given to Christ

Are people who disagree with your Calvinistic views Christians or so-called Christian?

 

[CorrectiveLens]

2 Cor 1: 21-22 Now He who establisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God, who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
This verse says it all. It is the Father who chooses us to be part of Christ's body and seals us with His Spirit.

Eph 2: 8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God- Not of works, lest any man should boast.

1 Peter 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to His abundant mercy, hath begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Blessed be the God of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again ( as in a new birth) unto a hope that is alive in every generation because of the resurrection of Christ from the dead ( The Father gives the Son a glorified body which gets filled throughout the history of man).

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also give life to your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you.
If the Spirit of the Father given to Jesus is in you, then the life that is owed to Jesus ( because Jesus was perfect and was not supposed to die) is given to His body which is made up of Christians.

John 1: 12-13 But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the children of God, even (that is) to them that believe on His name; Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, BUT OF GOD.
As many as received His Spirit, to them gave He power to become children of God, that is to those that are baptized in the name of Jesus and are born again not biologically but spiritually by the will of the Father.

1 Peter 2: 3-5 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious; To whom, coming as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men but chosen of (by) God, and precious, Ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer spiritual sacrifice, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Those that are chosen know that the Father is gracious in choosing you to build the body of Christ and likens us to building blocks with life to build a spiritual house with Christ as our Lord, our God, and Savior.

1 Peter 2: 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a people of His own, that ye should show forth the praises of Him who hath called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Peter is talking about the Church age where members are chosen by the Father and because we posses His Holy Spirit have direct contact with Him ( the veil was rent) and as a whole are favored by Him and we should praise Him for calling us out of the darkness of not knowing into His marvelous light unto salvation.

Rev 17: 14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them; for He is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and they that are with Him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
1 Cor 15: 27-28 " For He ( the Father) hath put all things under His (Christ) feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted who did put all things under Him".
Christ is our Lord, our Savior, and our God, but the Father is God of all ( including Jesus). The called, chosen, and faithful are those that are members of Christ's spiritual body which His angels will gather in the last day.

Mark 13: 20 And except the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved; but for the elect's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
The elect are those that the Father has chosen.

Mark 13: 22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall show signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Ezek 13: 1-2 "Woe unto false prophets that prophesy out of their own hearts instead of the word of the Lord."
To prophesy means to have communication from God either in words or visions or dreams for the purpose of delivering His message to the people. In the Old Testament the Fathers had back and forth conversations with God and were considered Prophets. God would bestow His Holy Spirit on the person and the line of communication was open. 2 Peter 1: 21 " For the prophesy came not at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit." In the later days the false Christs and false prophets will be very convincing.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

The more I read the more I lean towards...

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat. I find the more I
read, prayerfully And Carefully studying God's Word Of Truth, the
more I lean towards simply obeying 2 Timothy 2:15.

So far this has answered all my struggles * with seeming
contradictions, Misinterpretations, and Confusion (of gospels,
baptisms, healings, tongues, predestination According To God's Foreknowledge, etc.) *

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).



Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

* In light of Paul’s prayer for power and spiritual maturity for
Christians, this may also be helpful in what we lean toward:

Does Christ Dwell In Your Heart?

 

[CorrectiveLens]

Are people who disagree with your Calvinistic views Christians or so-called Christian?

I don't know. I let God be the judge.

 

[Snacks]

Don't be swayed by the so-called Christians on this site.

I beg to differ.

 

[smmartin0507]

Arminians are 100 times worse .

They THROW OUT Predestination and Election. WHY? because they also think it means God predestined men unto damnation. They jump to the very same conclusion. So they not only throw out Calvin they also throw out the bible. And they create a new horror doctrine of their own, the doctrine of Human freewill.

Human Freewill insists that in order to be saved a person must hear the gospel, must believe the gospel and must DECIDE ... CHOOSE. else they are damned.

They therefore consign BILLIONS of human souls to hell because we never reached them with the gospel. That's worse than Calvin.

Come the bible way. BELIEVE God foreknew YOU and predestined you and chose you to be like Jesus and to be His witness in the world.

Leave all else to God's immeasurable mercy and grace.[/QUOTE]
this is the biggest problem I have with most Christians. They speak as though they chose God. Phrases like “that preacher won me to the Lord” It just doesn’t sit right with me. I think If we even begin to go down the road of learning Gods attributes, we should come away in complete awe of his sovereignty.

 

[Nehemiah6]

This verse says it all. It is the Father who chooses us to be part of Christ's body and seals us with His Spirit.

Your lengthy and numerous posts do not change the FACT that TULIP is a false gospel. And I already showed why.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Arminians are 100 times worse .

So since this is your comment it would seem that you have already bought the foolish ideas of Calvinism.

 

[KostasLT]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

God desires all people to be saved:

1 Timothy 2:1-6 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

So I'm certain at least a degree of free will exists.

 

[HealthAndHappiness]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

I hope this is as much a blessing to you as it has been to me.

Eternal Blessings

/\

 

[Melach]

Most Everyone is against Calvinism. But if you read the bible for yourself the precepts of Calvinism are un-deniable. Maybe not the way some people teach it, but the basic principles of Calvinism are all scriptural.


Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.


Why are some Saved by listening to the Preacher and some are not?


Because God Chooses. All throughout the Bible it is God Choosing His People and separating them from everyone else.


All the things required for Salvation are the Gift of God. It is God who Draws His People to Himself.


John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

before someone replies and says Jesus will draw everyone, make sure you arent a universalist. because once you are drawn, you will come. as Jesus says all who Father gives to me will come. not maybe, but will come.
and even in this verse john 6:44 it says and i will raise him up at the last day. so if you are drawn you will also be raised up to glory

 

[Runningman]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

Just be careful because Calvin's TULIP is a thought-terminating cliché. There are many tough questions that Calvinism cannot succinctly answer using the Bible. If you want to have a serious cross examination of Calvinism with the Bible then I am willing to just examine it with you here. Though if you are just looking for validation, I am sure you can find that here too.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Why does the gospel need to be witnessed

before someone replies and says Jesus will draw everyone, make sure you arent a universalist. because once you are drawn, you will come. as Jesus says all who Father gives to me will come. not maybe, but will come.
and even in this verse john 6:44 it says and i will raise him up at the last day. so if you are drawn you will also be raised up to glory

sits basocally I think the idea that Gods going to save some no matter what they do and destroy others no matter what they do

at he ultimate excuse not to repent and change our ways when we’re taught about right and wrong “ I have no choice what I do and I’m saved anyways or I’m lost no matter what I myself do even if I heard Jesus say “ just do this and you’ll be saved “ even if I heard that it doesn’t matter if I do it or not its notgoing to help I’m rather pre determined to be lost or saved no matter what

the hypergrace distortion is like a cancer. On faith the longer we listen to it the more we become convinced that what Jesus taught man and said “ this will save your soul “ isn’t the truth but this new book written last year saying “grace grace your saved now “ that is true and the things God said not so much


If God was like that it sure would make him dofferent from the righteous just good and holy God he is

 

[Snacks]

Arminians are 100 times worse .

They THROW OUT Predestination and Election. WHY? because they also think it means God predestined men unto damnation. They jump to the very same conclusion. So they not only throw out Calvin they also throw out the bible. And they create a new horror doctrine of their own, the doctrine of Human freewill.

Human Freewill insists that in order to be saved a person must hear the gospel, must believe the gospel and must DECIDE ... CHOOSE. else they are damned.

They therefore consign BILLIONS of human souls to hell because we never reached them with the gospel. That's worse than Calvin.

Come the bible way. BELIEVE God foreknew YOU and predestined you and chose you to be like Jesus and to be His witness in the world.

Leave all else to God's immeasurable mercy and grace.
this is the biggest problem I have with most Christians. They speak as though they chose God. Phrases like “that preacher won me to the Lord” It just doesn’t sit right with me. I think If we even begin to go down the road of learning Gods attributes, we should come away in complete awe of his sovereignty.

You’re young and judgmental. You’ll fit right in with some folks here.