Is The Earth Flat Or Round?
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I have been really confused by this image you keep refering back to and finally went back through to find the blasted thing.
I think you're seeing things. this image doesn't show anything like a northward shadow.......
is there another one you forgot to post?
sure, you claim that the shadow does actually exist....... but after an hour of looking at images on google I have yet to see any with a clear northward shadow of the Sydney opera house........
this image shows a possible sun position of a slight east-south-east or west-south-west position from the opera house (depending on whether the image was taken from Pylon Lookout or Garden Island. I'm asuming from lookout because I don't see the bridge or the smaller building, but the picture is so small on my screen I can't really tell). but without proper heading info that isn't even necessarily true.
regardless, a flat earth would not necessarily not allow a northward shadow of the opera house, it would not necessarily be a very profound northward shadow, but it could potentially still happen.
how is this a refutation of flat earth?
I think you're seeing things. this image doesn't show anything like a northward shadow.......
is there another one you forgot to post?
sure, you claim that the shadow does actually exist....... but after an hour of looking at images on google I have yet to see any with a clear northward shadow of the Sydney opera house........
this image shows a possible sun position of a slight east-south-east or west-south-west position from the opera house (depending on whether the image was taken from Pylon Lookout or Garden Island. I'm asuming from lookout because I don't see the bridge or the smaller building, but the picture is so small on my screen I can't really tell). but without proper heading info that isn't even necessarily true.
regardless, a flat earth would not necessarily not allow a northward shadow of the opera house, it would not necessarily be a very profound northward shadow, but it could potentially still happen.
how is this a refutation of flat earth?
@EliB...
I had to edit that particular picture heavily to reduce it to an allowable file size. There are many others, as any Google search will show.
The Opera House (OH) is on a peninsula that juts almost exactly Northward into Sydney Harbour. During the day, the sun casts a shadow toward the South end of the OH. Most overhead shots show this clearly. The shot I included shows the sun rising toward the Southeast. Other pics show it setting toward the Southwest.
Here's the problem:
Sydney is located about ten degrees South of the Tropic of Capricorn. The sun NEVER appears directly overhead at any point South of that line of latitude. In the NCFE model, the sun simply CANNOT cast a shadow even slightly toward the North at any time of the day, on any day of the year. Therefore, shadows that fall even slightly Northward absolutely refute that North-centric flat Earth model. I suppose there may be other models of a flat Earth that such shadows don't refute, but I have never encountered any such.
Of course, a tilted, revolving globe Earth explains the Northward shadows perfectly.
I had to edit that particular picture heavily to reduce it to an allowable file size. There are many others, as any Google search will show.
The Opera House (OH) is on a peninsula that juts almost exactly Northward into Sydney Harbour. During the day, the sun casts a shadow toward the South end of the OH. Most overhead shots show this clearly. The shot I included shows the sun rising toward the Southeast. Other pics show it setting toward the Southwest.
Here's the problem:
Sydney is located about ten degrees South of the Tropic of Capricorn. The sun NEVER appears directly overhead at any point South of that line of latitude. In the NCFE model, the sun simply CANNOT cast a shadow even slightly toward the North at any time of the day, on any day of the year. Therefore, shadows that fall even slightly Northward absolutely refute that North-centric flat Earth model. I suppose there may be other models of a flat Earth that such shadows don't refute, but I have never encountered any such.
Of course, a tilted, revolving globe Earth explains the Northward shadows perfectly.
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I'm laughing at your assertions. You are arguing from a position of profound ignorance of basic physics, and you stubbornly refuse to learn. You can blather on about science fiction all you like, but you are, so far, unable to explain real-world phenomena.
At least your comments provide some entertainment value.
At least your comments provide some entertainment value.
That's a fair question. And just for clarification;
the bible and the beliefs of the characters thereof don't need to say what the shape of the earth is. the entire bible precludes a form of "flat earth" cosmology. according to most scholars and historians ancient civilizations almost universally held to the presumed fact that the earth was a plain and enclosed. the bible didn't need to say it for it to be assumed. the best example of this is probably Docter Heisser. he's given several really good lectures on what ancient peoples believed about world cosmology including the ancient Hebrews and Israel. of course, this doesn't mean that FE is true, but it is worth noting and asking questions about.
granted. I will give that the Bible never specifically says the earth is flat.
that is fine.
I don't have any issue with that.
if someone wants to believe the earth is a sphere flying through a practically infinite nothing,
that's fine too. I don't have specific verses that specifically refute those things, I have pictures that do, but not scriptures. and I'm not actually sure that those verses even exist.
But, what the bible does clearly speak about is the importance of earth, everything exists in the cosmos for the earth. God did not make anything else (or anywhere else) for life, God made the Sun and the Moon to give their own light, He set a Firmament in the heaven that divides the waters above from the earth beneath, The Earth does not move, The stars are gonna fall to Earth, Ecetra
now does any of this actually mean that the earth is flat? No.
but it does give us a lot of problems for our modern cosmology and makes us need to deeply consider what is true.
is the Word true? or are our scientific claims true?
the issue i have is, are we coming from the same base, do we count on the same truth? As for me, the Word is True. the Scripture is true, it's the only thing I have that is True, I have had to learn that the hard way and I beg so many people to not have to learn like I did.
sure, scripture doesn't say the earth is flat, cool. but it gives other lessons that seem to fly in the face of many of the things we believe about reality and the cosmos. I believe God did this as a sort of Litmus test. are we gonna trust in the Word of God or are we gonna trust in the words of men? this is something I struggle with daily in so many things. there are a lot of things in the bible that I don't want to believe or accept. but the bible proclaims them as true, so I must accept them. Anyone that claims Christ should know this much and needs to make choices about what they believe in accordance. as for me, let God be true and every man a liar, this is my foundation, and it is why I'm so passionate about it.
the bible and the beliefs of the characters thereof don't need to say what the shape of the earth is. the entire bible precludes a form of "flat earth" cosmology. according to most scholars and historians ancient civilizations almost universally held to the presumed fact that the earth was a plain and enclosed. the bible didn't need to say it for it to be assumed. the best example of this is probably Docter Heisser. he's given several really good lectures on what ancient peoples believed about world cosmology including the ancient Hebrews and Israel. of course, this doesn't mean that FE is true, but it is worth noting and asking questions about.
granted. I will give that the Bible never specifically says the earth is flat.
that is fine.
I don't have any issue with that.
if someone wants to believe the earth is a sphere flying through a practically infinite nothing,
that's fine too. I don't have specific verses that specifically refute those things, I have pictures that do, but not scriptures. and I'm not actually sure that those verses even exist.
But, what the bible does clearly speak about is the importance of earth, everything exists in the cosmos for the earth. God did not make anything else (or anywhere else) for life, God made the Sun and the Moon to give their own light, He set a Firmament in the heaven that divides the waters above from the earth beneath, The Earth does not move, The stars are gonna fall to Earth, Ecetra
now does any of this actually mean that the earth is flat? No.
but it does give us a lot of problems for our modern cosmology and makes us need to deeply consider what is true.
is the Word true? or are our scientific claims true?
the issue i have is, are we coming from the same base, do we count on the same truth? As for me, the Word is True. the Scripture is true, it's the only thing I have that is True, I have had to learn that the hard way and I beg so many people to not have to learn like I did.
sure, scripture doesn't say the earth is flat, cool. but it gives other lessons that seem to fly in the face of many of the things we believe about reality and the cosmos. I believe God did this as a sort of Litmus test. are we gonna trust in the Word of God or are we gonna trust in the words of men? this is something I struggle with daily in so many things. there are a lot of things in the bible that I don't want to believe or accept. but the bible proclaims them as true, so I must accept them. Anyone that claims Christ should know this much and needs to make choices about what they believe in accordance. as for me, let God be true and every man a liar, this is my foundation, and it is why I'm so passionate about it.
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I appreciate the new image friend, but, this image has other issues Chief of which is it is taken via a gopro or similar wide angle lens. This is clearly demonstrated by the pronounced curve of the horizon. this makes most assumptions about location in the image practically impossible without a clearly defined notifier of location or direction, which would still be badly altered due to the wide angle lens.
So this isn't the evidence you claim it is.
regardless, why is a southwest sun impossible on a North-centric flat earth?
i took a screenshot of Google maps of this image from ground level on the other side of the opera house, according to google maps, the sun in your image is actually almost perfectly due west, which definitely would not be an issue for the earth system. (i tried attaching the image but I can't seem to get it small enough to add and still keep the parts of the image necessary to show what I'm talking about, sorry.....)
So this isn't the evidence you claim it is.
regardless, why is a southwest sun impossible on a North-centric flat earth?
i took a screenshot of Google maps of this image from ground level on the other side of the opera house, according to google maps, the sun in your image is actually almost perfectly due west, which definitely would not be an issue for the earth system. (i tried attaching the image but I can't seem to get it small enough to add and still keep the parts of the image necessary to show what I'm talking about, sorry.....)
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@EliB...
I had to edit that particular picture heavily to reduce it to an allowable file size. There are many others, as any Google search will show.
The Opera House (OH) is on a peninsula that juts almost exactly Northward into Sydney Harbour. During the day, the sun casts a shadow toward the South end of the OH. Most overhead shots show this clearly. The shot I included shows the sun rising toward the Southeast. Other pics show it setting toward the Southwest.
Here's the problem:
Sydney is located about ten degrees South of the Tropic of Capricorn. The sun NEVER appears directly overhead at any point South of that line of latitude. In the NCFE model, the sun simply CANNOT cast a shadow even slightly toward the North at any time of the day, on any day of the year. Therefore, shadows that fall even slightly Northward absolutely refute that North-centric flat Earth model. I suppose there may be other models of a flat Earth that such shadows don't refute, but I have never encountered any such.
Of course, a tilted, revolving globe Earth explains the Northward shadows perfectly.
I had to edit that particular picture heavily to reduce it to an allowable file size. There are many others, as any Google search will show.
The Opera House (OH) is on a peninsula that juts almost exactly Northward into Sydney Harbour. During the day, the sun casts a shadow toward the South end of the OH. Most overhead shots show this clearly. The shot I included shows the sun rising toward the Southeast. Other pics show it setting toward the Southwest.
Here's the problem:
Sydney is located about ten degrees South of the Tropic of Capricorn. The sun NEVER appears directly overhead at any point South of that line of latitude. In the NCFE model, the sun simply CANNOT cast a shadow even slightly toward the North at any time of the day, on any day of the year. Therefore, shadows that fall even slightly Northward absolutely refute that North-centric flat Earth model. I suppose there may be other models of a flat Earth that such shadows don't refute, but I have never encountered any such.
Of course, a tilted, revolving globe Earth explains the Northward shadows perfectly.
yah, im realizing that now haha, hopefully i can figure out how to manage shrinking the images enough to make them show.
according to this chart, the sun giving a northern shadow of the opera house is even more impossible on a heliocentric model. how can it give a northern shadow to something it won't ever even be overhead for?
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The sun can easily cast a shadow toward the North in the Southern hemisphere because of the Earth's tilt. The same principle holds in the Northern hemisphere. I live at about 50 degrees North, and between April and early September, the sun is visible in the early and late daylight hours well to the North of "due East" or "due West". The same principle holds in the Southern hemisphere between November and February.
Here is an overhead show from Google Earth with the orientation corrected (North at top). This shows the downtown core to the Southwest of the Opera House. In the previous image I posted, the sun is peeking between the tall buildings of the downtown core, putting it well to the Southwest of the OH.
Here is an overhead show from Google Earth with the orientation corrected (North at top). This shows the downtown core to the Southwest of the Opera House. In the previous image I posted, the sun is peeking between the tall buildings of the downtown core, putting it well to the Southwest of the OH.
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sorry, this is a bit of a long comment, however, please do read and respond if you would. thanks
it doesn't appear to be anywhere near the downtown core.
If anything, the sun appears to be setting from directly behind the Clock tower shopping mall on Argyle St or the Rocks museum
it isn't anywhere near city center. this does appear to be at an almost west-south-west position of the OH, though, so i'll give that. but this isn't important for the point.
the cell tower is clearly visible in your picture to the left of the sunset which itself is outside and to the right of the tall building in the downtown center. I feel you may be seeing something that isn't quite the way you imagine it to be.
another interesting point of note is the tropics.
the sun never actually goes that far south on earth.
the Tropic of Capricorn, which is the southern most point that the sun will ever appear directly overhead on a globe (cause curve, don't forget) stops just overtop of the city of Rockhampton which is just 725 miles due north of the opera house.
if this is true, and the earth is a globe, what is it your images are seeing?
if Sydney is almost a full 10 degrees further southward than the Tropic of Capricorn this would put the sun, at least, a further 10 degrees northward in the sky during December in Australia while it would be directly overhead in Rockhampton some 725 miles due north.......
I won't argue about shadows here. Obviously, people see them, and they believe them to be shadows cast northward.
this is fine with me, I don't have issue with this. what I do have issue with is how on Gods green Earth is a sun that cannot ever possibly be that far south on a globe cast a northward shadow of the opera house?
how is this possible on a globe? this makes no sense.
if you want to ask how this could be possible on a north-centric flat earth map I would be happy to attempt an explanation
but you are arguing that this is proof for a globe. how? this is literally not possible on the globe we are told that we live on.
this is why I posted the image on post #1211, it clearly shows this. I don't know if you could see it, but please check it and explain to me how and by what order of witchcraft (joking here bro) the sun is appearing in the position you claim it to be in on the globe earth.
I'll try to add images that show what i'm seeing.
Yes!!!! it worked, this image is from the ground right next to the opera house. the sun in your image in post #1208 shows the sun almost exactly where that plane (I think its a plane) right between the Bunkers Hill building, that fun multi-level behind the steeple, and the clock tower on Argyle St. as can be seen in the minimap on the left and the compass on the right, the direction is only barely West-South-West.
This image is showing the Birds eye distance from the opera house to the city of Rockhampton with is right on top of the Tropic of Capricorn which is the southernmost point the sun will ever be directly overhead on the globe Earth claimed by heliocentrism
also the OH is Latitude -33.856159. this puts it over 10 degrees further south of the southern most location the sun will ever be directly overhead.
And
the path of the sun over the Earth. note that the southern most point on the red line is only going to cross overtop Rockhampton and no further south.
So, again, how is the sun appearing what appears to be almost a full 20 to 30 degrees further south than is possible in your images if the Earth is the globe it is claimed to be?
this ended up being really long, sorry about that, but I had a lot of fun looking into this. appreciate you!
it doesn't appear to be anywhere near the downtown core.
If anything, the sun appears to be setting from directly behind the Clock tower shopping mall on Argyle St or the Rocks museum
it isn't anywhere near city center. this does appear to be at an almost west-south-west position of the OH, though, so i'll give that. but this isn't important for the point.
the cell tower is clearly visible in your picture to the left of the sunset which itself is outside and to the right of the tall building in the downtown center. I feel you may be seeing something that isn't quite the way you imagine it to be.
another interesting point of note is the tropics.
the sun never actually goes that far south on earth.
the Tropic of Capricorn, which is the southern most point that the sun will ever appear directly overhead on a globe (cause curve, don't forget) stops just overtop of the city of Rockhampton which is just 725 miles due north of the opera house.
if this is true, and the earth is a globe, what is it your images are seeing?
if Sydney is almost a full 10 degrees further southward than the Tropic of Capricorn this would put the sun, at least, a further 10 degrees northward in the sky during December in Australia while it would be directly overhead in Rockhampton some 725 miles due north.......
I won't argue about shadows here. Obviously, people see them, and they believe them to be shadows cast northward.
this is fine with me, I don't have issue with this. what I do have issue with is how on Gods green Earth is a sun that cannot ever possibly be that far south on a globe cast a northward shadow of the opera house?
how is this possible on a globe? this makes no sense.
if you want to ask how this could be possible on a north-centric flat earth map I would be happy to attempt an explanation
but you are arguing that this is proof for a globe. how? this is literally not possible on the globe we are told that we live on.
this is why I posted the image on post #1211, it clearly shows this. I don't know if you could see it, but please check it and explain to me how and by what order of witchcraft (joking here bro) the sun is appearing in the position you claim it to be in on the globe earth.
I'll try to add images that show what i'm seeing.
Yes!!!! it worked, this image is from the ground right next to the opera house. the sun in your image in post #1208 shows the sun almost exactly where that plane (I think its a plane) right between the Bunkers Hill building, that fun multi-level behind the steeple, and the clock tower on Argyle St. as can be seen in the minimap on the left and the compass on the right, the direction is only barely West-South-West.
This image is showing the Birds eye distance from the opera house to the city of Rockhampton with is right on top of the Tropic of Capricorn which is the southernmost point the sun will ever be directly overhead on the globe Earth claimed by heliocentrism
also the OH is Latitude -33.856159. this puts it over 10 degrees further south of the southern most location the sun will ever be directly overhead.
And
the path of the sun over the Earth. note that the southern most point on the red line is only going to cross overtop Rockhampton and no further south.
So, again, how is the sun appearing what appears to be almost a full 20 to 30 degrees further south than is possible in your images if the Earth is the globe it is claimed to be?
this ended up being really long, sorry about that, but I had a lot of fun looking into this. appreciate you!
No worries about the long post.
You are proving my point, though I suspect you don't realize it. The sun never appears directly overhead at any point South of the Tropic of Capricorn. This has nothing to do with the model of the Earth's shape in which one believes. Neither FE nor BE proponents have ever witnessed the sun directly overhead farther South than that.
For the sun to cast a shadow even slightly Northward (as in 91 degrees or 271 degrees where 0/360 are North), the Sun would have to be South of that location by at least a little bit. We agree that doesn't happen.
With the ball Earth, the axial tilt allows for the sun to be overhead somewhere between Africa and South America while it peeks over the pole to cast a Northward shadow in Southern Australia. Try it with a basketball and a point-source light to illustrate. With a North-centric flat Earth, it's simply impossible; the sun is never in a position to do that.
You are proving my point, though I suspect you don't realize it. The sun never appears directly overhead at any point South of the Tropic of Capricorn. This has nothing to do with the model of the Earth's shape in which one believes. Neither FE nor BE proponents have ever witnessed the sun directly overhead farther South than that.
For the sun to cast a shadow even slightly Northward (as in 91 degrees or 271 degrees where 0/360 are North), the Sun would have to be South of that location by at least a little bit. We agree that doesn't happen.
With the ball Earth, the axial tilt allows for the sun to be overhead somewhere between Africa and South America while it peeks over the pole to cast a Northward shadow in Southern Australia. Try it with a basketball and a point-source light to illustrate. With a North-centric flat Earth, it's simply impossible; the sun is never in a position to do that.
and that is my point.
even with the axial tilt the sun will never be anywhere near southward of Sydney. the closest it will ever be on a ball earth would be. Maybe perfectly due west, but never south of that. Thus you never have your northward shadows or west-south-west sunsets or the reverse sunrise. the axial tilt isn't something that makes imaginary and magical things that aren't real, real. it's only going to make this problem worse, not better. At best, the sun may appear to rise perfectly eastward and set perfectly westward. never even somewhat Southward the 10.2ish degrees difference in sun position assures us of that. there is no getting around that.
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As I said earlier, the Sun appears NORTH of due West/East in the Northern hemisphere, between April and September. That isn't magical or imaginary. The same thing happens in reverse in the Southern hemisphere.
You haven't tried the basketball illustration.
Try it.
Then get back to me.
You haven't tried the basketball illustration.
Try it.
Then get back to me.
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It is not irrelevant.
Joshua 10:
12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
The 'command' was for the sun and moon to 'stand thou still'. And, they did.
At the very absolute least, you would have to agree that - relative to the "battleground" in this scenario - the sun and moon stopped moving for "about a whole day"...
It happened. The Bible says so. And, it is not just somebody's opinion about how it "appeared"; rather, it is the biblical historical record of what actually happened - "the sun stood still in the midst of heaven" is a description of an actual historical 'event'.
It does not get any more real or sure than this.
So then - the question becomes:
Relative to an observer on the earth - how does the sun and moon stop moving for ~24 hours?
How does it even appear to stop moving for ~24 hours?
Relative to an observer on the earth - how does the sun and moon stand still for ~24 hours?
How does it even appear to stand still for ~24 hours?
Joshua 10:
12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
The 'command' was for the sun and moon to 'stand thou still'. And, they did.
At the very absolute least, you would have to agree that - relative to the "battleground" in this scenario - the sun and moon stopped moving for "about a whole day"...
It happened. The Bible says so. And, it is not just somebody's opinion about how it "appeared"; rather, it is the biblical historical record of what actually happened - "the sun stood still in the midst of heaven" is a description of an actual historical 'event'.
It does not get any more real or sure than this.
So then - the question becomes:
Relative to an observer on the earth - how does the sun and moon stop moving for ~24 hours?
How does it even appear to stop moving for ~24 hours?
Relative to an observer on the earth - how does the sun and moon stand still for ~24 hours?
How does it even appear to stand still for ~24 hours?