Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52, you botched your reply in Post 2694 in response to Post 2675.

You claimed "God passing over" was due to "Him seeing the Blood" and was "not because of anything else".

However, it is clear from the record that the children of Israel had to take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post.

So, your claim is false. There was something else that was done on the part of the children of Israel before God "passing over in Judgement and destruction".

Exodus 12:7 And they [the children of Israel] shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.


Someone from each home had to take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post.

Exodus 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

If no blood on the door posts, God's stated judgment would fall on that house.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Insults

Insults

My pointing out to you that you have ripped a verse from its context and

My pointing out to you that you have botched your post

does not equal "insults"


in fact, what is an insult to God is you ripping a verse from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma ... or your manipulation of Scripture where you rearrange the order of the words in Scripture, then claim that your manipulation is really the way God should have written His Word.

and what is insulting to the members of the Christian Forum is you botching your posts so that it appears you stated words submitted by me (and/or others) or that I (and/or others) stated words that you submitted.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

See the word "now" in vs 9?

Because we do not rip verses from their context and because we recall what we read in Rom 5:1, we are now justified by His blood.

“now” is translated from the Greek word nýn which means

now, i.e. at the present time; (Thayer's).​

​

now, as the logical result of what precedes; now, in light of what has gone before (HELPS Word-studies)​

You claim that justification of mankind occurred at the time the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. However, Scripture tells us mankind is justified at the time he/she believes.

In the case of Abraham, he believed God and God imputed righteousness to Abraham right when Abraham believed ... Abraham was made righteous during his lifetime. Abraham did not have to wait for centuries until the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ.

For a believer who lives after the crucifixion, he/she is justified at the time he/she believes:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies !

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, God made provision for the redemption of mankind. The over-abounding love, mercy, grace of God is made clear throughout the whole of Scripture.

It is clear in Scripture that God reached out to mankind while mankind is in a rebellious state.

As I have already pointed out to you in the past, the word reconciled in Rom 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

Reconciliation on the part of God to mankind took place before the foundation of the world.

Reconciliation on the part of man to God takes place at the time a person turns to God in faith ... at that point we are no longer enemies.

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them remain enemies and are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

intentionally obtuse.

Apparently you do not understand the difference between examination of your erroneous dogma and a personal attack.

Don't justify yourself for doing something you criticize others for doing, its hypocritical.

nope, that erroneous misconception is wholly made up by you in the imagination of your vain reasoning.

You teaching law keeping, when you talk about your natural faith, then you put yourself under the law Matt 23:23

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Good luck with your law keeping faith lol

Scripture is quite clear faith ≠ works.

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

You dont believe this, you believe in law keeping faith

 

[brightfame52]

another erroneous misconception from the keyboard of brightfame52 ... right up there with "law keeping faith" and "secretly righteous" and we "do not have to believe it, accept itor do anything but continue being ungodly sinners" ...


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

The elect are born into the world ungodly !

 

[brightfame52]

reneweddaybyday - Post 2622

​

What you refuse to acknowledge is that God Who justifies the ungodly imputes righteousness to the one who believes. The moment the person believes, he/she is no longer ungodly.​

brightfame52 - Post 2648

​

God imputed righteousness to them before they believed​

reneweddaybyday - Post 2670

that may be what your erroneous dogma tells you, but that is not what Scripture tells you​

You are again missing the point. Please pay attention to the issue raised:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.

Please address the issue concerning the verb tense in Romans 4:5. They are all present tense.





I have pointed out to you that the verbs in Rom 4:5 are all in the present tense and you equate that to your fallacious belief that I "want to deny the witness of the resurrection of Christ".





Since Scripture is clear that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world, it appears you are the one who embraces universalism.





You really need to stop this thought from being typed out on your keyboard. Just repudiate the thought the moment the adversary whispers it to you.

repudiate = refuse to accept or be associated with

memorize this verse:

Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

Any time that erroneous thought is brought to your mind, refuse to entertain it and hold fast to the greatness of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

"If there are words for Him, then I don't have them.

You see my brain has not yet reached the point
where it could form a thought that could adequately
describe the greatness of my God.

And my lungs have not yet developed the ability to
release a breath with enough to agility to
breathe out the greatness of His love

And my voice, you see my voice is so inhibited.
Restrained by human limits,
that it's hard to even send the praise up.

You see if there are words for Him, then I don't have them.

My God,
His grace is remarkable
Mercies are innumerable
Strength is impenetrable
He is honorable, accountable, favorable,

He's unsearchable yet knowable
Indefinable yet approachable
Indescribable yet personal

He is beyond comprehension
Further than imagination
Constant through generations
King of every nation

But if there are words for Him, then I don't have them.

You see my words are few
In trying to capture the one true God
Using my vocabulary would never do

But I use words as an expression,
An expression of worship to a Savior
A Savior who is both worthy and deserving of my praise
So I use words.

My heart extols the Lord.
Blesses His name forever.
He has won my heart,
Captured my mind
And has bound them both together

He has defeated me in my rebellion
Conquered me in my sin
He has welcomed me into His presence
Completely invited me in
He has made Himself the object of my sight
Flooding me with mercies in the morning
Drowning me with grace in the night

But if there are words for Him, then I don't have them.

But what I do have is good news
For my God knew that manmade words
Would never do, the words are just tools
That we use to point to the truth

So He sent His Son Jesus Christ
As The Word, living proof

He is the image of the invisible God
The first born of all creation
For by Him all things were created
Giving nothingness formation
And by His words He sustains
In the power of His name

For He is before all things
And over all things He reigns
Holy is His name

So praise Him for His life
The way He persevered in strife
The humble Son of God becoming the perfect sacrifice

Praise Him for His death.
That He willingly stood in our place
That He lovingly endured the grave
That He battled our enemy
And on the third day rose in Victory.
He is everything that was promised

Praise Him as a risen King
Lift your voice and sing
For one day He will return for us
And we will finally be united with our Savior
For eternity, eternity.

So it's not just words that I proclaim
For my words point to The Word
And The Word has a name
Hope has a name
Joy has a name
Peace has a name
Love has a name
And that name is Jesus Christ

Praise His name FOREVER!"
.

Again you deny the witness of the resurrection of Christ Rom 4:25. Clearly when Christ was raised from the dead, was because the sins of those He died for had been dealt with and put away, Gods Justified for them, so He was raised because of their Justification before God

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52 - Post 2648

but he was justified before God, by the blood of Christ, before he became a believer​

reneweddaybyday - Post 2670

"before he became a believer", he was not "justified before God". Before he became a believer, he was ungodly.​

​

According to Scripture, a person is not simultaneously justified and ungodly.​

​

That your erroneous dogma considers a person to be simultaneously justified and ungodly is Scripturally unsound.​

​

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error and hold to Scripture.​

nope ... do not attribute that erroneous belief to Scripture

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.


The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.
.

Everyone Christ died for and put away their sins, we know their sins have been put away because God raised Him from the dead, so all for whom He died are Justified from all sin, and counted righteous, even while they are ungodly ! Until you understand this, you are just stumbling around in darkness friend.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Now what is Paul Preaching here ?

Paul is teaching that Scripture declares God is Righteous, Just, and the Justifier of those who believe in Jesus.


From Adam Clarke Commentary:

To declare, I say, at this time – To manifest now, by the dispensation of the Gospel, his righteousness, his infinite mercy; and to manifest it in such a way, that he might still appear to be the just God, and yet the justifier, the pardoner, of him who believeth in Jesus. Here we learn that God designed to give the most evident displays both of his justice and mercy. Of his justice, in requiring a sacrifice, and absolutely refusing to give salvation to a lost world in any other way; and of his mercy, in providing The sacrifice which his justice required. Thus, because Jesus was an atonement, a ransom price, for the sin of the world, therefore God can, consistently with his justice, pardon every soul that believeth in Jesus. This is the full discovery of God's righteousness, of his wonderful method of magnifying his law and making it honorable; of showing the infinite purity of his justice, and of saving a lost world.​

Is he teaching that one must believe on Jesus Christ as a condition in order for God to Justify them ? God forbid, for that is Justification by the work of man, believing is an act of man !

Scripture makes clear that we are justified by faith:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ...

Confirmed further:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.


Scripture also makes clear that faith ≠ works:

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

"before he became a believer", he was not "justified before God". Before he became a believer, he was ungodly.

Right, thats why its stated God Justfieth the ungodly Rom 4:5. God Justified the ungodly elect because Christ died for them. Its Christs death that Justifieth, not a persons believing.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

According to Scripture, a person is not simultaneously justified and ungodly.

False, the elect are Justified by the Blood of Christ while ungodly as they are reconciled to God by His death while they are enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

You undervalue the intrinsic worth of the Death/ Blood of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth

[present tense] on him that justifieth [present tense] the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.


The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, God justifies the one who believes ... at that very moment the believer is no longer ungodly.

Yet it says Justifying the ungodly, so they were being Justified while ungodly. Then we must distinguish between objective, legal Justification before God which was accomplished by the death of Christ and spiritual subjective Justification before Heart and Mind which occurs as believing . But the key is that they were believing on Him that Justifies the ungodly, which denotes prior to believing, and prior to regeneration.

As I have quoted before John Gill on this verse Rom 4:5

but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly: or that ungodly one: particular reference is had to Abraham, who in his state of unregeneracy was an ungodly person; as all God's elect are in a state of nature, and are such when God justifies them, being without a righteousness of their own; wherefore he imputes the righteousness of another, even that of his own Son, unto them: and though he justifies the ungodly, he does not justify their ungodliness, but them from it; nor will he, nor does he leave them to live and die in it; now to him that worketh not, that is perfect righteousness; or has no opportunity of working at all; or what he does, he does not do, that he might be justified by it; but exercises faith on God as justifying persons, who, like himself, are sinners, ungodly and destitute of a righteousness:
.

And it should be noted that in the verse the word ungodly is preceded by the definite article[τὸν ἀσεβῆ ], so making a point to emphasis that the one being Justified is ungodly in nature

Then to top it off we know that Christs resurrection is an evidence that those He died for have been Justified Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

nope ... you have already told us you witness tulip which is calvinistic theology.

And now we're 136+ pages into this thread and you still have not addressed pertinent issues pointed out to you and which you refuse to acknowledge.

Rather than address the issues, you fall back to your standard cliché responses due to your inability to support your claims without manipulating Scripture.

OH Yeah, Im witnessing to you the True Testimony of the Gospel of Gods Grace in Christ and you vehemently oppose it !

see? You do not believe Scripture! There is no need to manipulate Rom 5:1 to "read differently". Just read Scripture as is. Leave it alone and believe what God has written just as He has written it.

Scripture is clear in telling us when a person is justified:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Again Rom 4:25 informs us that the resurrection of Christ is a testifiication that the ones Christ was delivered up for, He was raised because of their Justification, in light of that, we have Rom 5:1

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

The punctuation like the comma isnt inspired, so if you put the comma after the word Justified, you have a better sense of the meaning. Therefore being Justified looks back to the conclusion of Rom 4:25 at the witness of the resurrection, which witness affirms that those Christ died for, He was raised for their Justification. Such ones will be given Faith to believe in their Justification through Jesus Christ and such believing brings peace of mind, for their is peace through believing Rom 15:13



Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Also the believing comes through the power of the Holy Ghost and not mans freewill unregenerate self.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You need to submit your posts properly so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.

Insults
.

 

[brightfame52]

more obfuscation and avoidance tactics on your part.

Again, please address the issue raised:

You claimed in Post 910:​

"its no where in scripture where the believer in Christ is stated to be the ungodly or in a ungodly state".​

​

You claimed in Post 2514:​

"That’s false" when I told you "Once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly"."​

​

You hold opposing views because your statements conflict with each other ...

On the one hand you claim "no where in Scripture" is the believer "stated to be ungodly"; and

On the other hand you claim "That’s false" when you are told once a person is justified, he/she is no longer "ungodly"

​

... the one who is confused is the one who claims on the one hand:





and on the other hand, he claims a person is:




regeneration = born again = new birth = new creature = justified = righteous

A believer is not justified "prior to being made a new creature by the new birth".



The rest of your Post 2691 is nothing but a botched up mess where you've again included a comment made by you with a comment made by me in a quote as if you made both statements:



.

Already addressed these matters, you dont listen.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You are avoiding the issue. Your claim is that "God gives them new life which is regeneration, and with that Faith to believe the Gospel".

Yes, the ability to believe the Gospel when it comes, is to have been regenerated. Thats not Gospel regeneration, that's regeneration before you hear the Gospel.

You have the person born again (regeneration) ... then they believe the gospel.

Yet we read in Ephesians 1:13 that the believer hears ... then believes ... then is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regeneration):

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

Yes one must be regenerated, made Spiritually alive to the Truth, before they can hear it. The Hearing of Truth is the fruit of regeneration. After the regenerated one hears the Truth, believes, they are sealed, not regenerated. The sealing ministry of the Spirit in Eph 1:13 isnt regeneration, thats your statement not scripture.

Peter stated in Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Acts 15:7 and Ephesians 1:13 are in alignment with each other ... first hear then believe the gospel

Exactly, they hear first [by regeneration] then believe. Only the regenerate hear Spiritually and believe.

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away

the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


Thayer's clearly states that the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, 1 John 2:2 refers to definition #5.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
5. the inhabitants of the world: ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16 ... 1 John 2:2

World here in these scriptures denote the elect, jews and gentiles who are saved

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

You are avoiding the issue. Your claim is that "God gives them new life which is regeneration, and with that Faith to believe the Gospel".

Yes, I am not avoiding that, I am proclaiming that, Both Faith and Repentance are regeneration blessings. Those blessings precede the hearing and believing the Gospel, and are necessary in order to believe the Gospel, the True Gospel, not the false gospel you proclaim.

You have the person born again (regeneration) ... then they believe the gospel.

Yes absolutely

Yet we read in Ephesians 1:13 that the believer hears ... then believes ... then is sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise (regeneration):

This is error. Sealing here isnt regeneration, its sealing

Peter stated in Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Right, they were to hear Spiritually first then believe. Hearing Spiritually is a regeneration blessing.

Acts 15:7 and Ephesians 1:13 are in alignment with each other ... first hear then believe the gospel

Correct, they both indicate a Spiritual hearing by regeneration in order to believe.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

brightfame52 said:
The Spirit quickens whoever Christ died for
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Okay, the Spirit still quickens whoever Christ died for.

brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Yet Scripture tells us Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof (Rom 6:12).
Thats after they become a believer, after they are born again
So according to you, sin is okay with God as long as the person is not a believer???? Please provide chapter and verse for that lie from the pit.

Foolish comment, you seem confused

brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
So again I ask is it Scriptural to teach that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???
It depends on whether you are speaking before or after the New Birth has taken place.
According to Scripture ... you know, God's Word ... sin is never okay whether one is born again or not.

You might get away with your outlandish manipulation of Scripture at the other sites you post your erroneous dogma, but your dogma crumbles like a house of cards under the light of Scripture.

Maybe if you'd pick up and read that Bible "setting around collecting dust", you just might come to understand that the Word of God is more than just "words written on paper".

More foolish confusing comments. Christs death alone Justified ungodly, sinful people before God, and thats that.

 

[brightfame52]

My pointing out to you that you have ripped a verse from its context and

My pointing out to you that you have botched your post

does not equal "insults"


in fact, what is an insult to God is you ripping a verse from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma ... or your manipulation of Scripture where you rearrange the order of the words in Scripture, then claim that your manipulation is really the way God should have written His Word.

and what is insulting to the members of the Christian Forum is you botching your posts so that it appears you stated words submitted by me (and/or others) or that I (and/or others) stated words that you submitted.
.

Your point is to insult me because I tell you the truth.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

brightfame52 said:

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
See the word "now" in vs 9?

Yes I see the word now. It looks back to Vs 8 Rom 5:8

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Christs death for them, Blood shed for them, while they were yet sinners, Justified them, they werent yet believers, but nevertheless, because God Loved them and sent Christ to die for them, they were Justified by His Blood.

You claim that justification of mankind occurred at the time the Lord Jesus Christ was crucified. However, Scripture tells us mankind is justified at the time he/she believes.

False, the Justification of Gods Elect chosen out of mankind occured when Christ died, His death is restricted to Gods elect Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Christ died and rose again for the Justification of Gods Elect Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Thats the Gospel I witness to, and dont forget it please !

In the case of Abraham, he believed God and God imputed righteousness to Abraham right when Abraham believed ...

False God had already imputed Righteousness to Abraham, and that's why he was given Faith to believe. Believing Faith has an object, that being Christs imputed Righteousness. Abraham was given Faith in Christ who was yet to come and die on the Cross, but God gave him Faith to see Christs day of accomplishment Jn 8:56

Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

For a believer who lives after the crucifixion, he/she is justified at the time he/she believes:

Yes before their own mind and heart, but not before God. Justification before God is based solely on the Death of Christ. Rom 5:8-9

brightfame52 said:
Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies !
The Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Before Adam and Eve sinned, God made provision for the redemption of mankind. The over-abounding love, mercy, grace of God is made clear throughout the whole of Scripture.

It is clear in Scripture that God reached out to mankind while mankind is in a rebellious state.

Again, ones own Faith/believing plays no part in ones Justification before God, thats accomplished solely by the Blood of Christ as Faith perceives it Rom 5:9

As I have already pointed out to you in the past, the word reconciled in Rom 5:10 is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

Reconciliation on the part of God to mankind took place before the foundation of the world.

Reconciliation on the part of man to God takes place at the time a person turns to God in faith ... at that point we are no longer enemies.

Christs death alone reconciled all parties involved. His death completely reconciled. In Col 1:20-22

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

The word reconciled here apokatallassō :

1. to reconcile completely
2. to reconcile back again
3. bring back a former state of harmony

So Both God and men are reconciled to one another strictly through the death of Christ, that why its complete. Now deny it if you like, you are denying the work of Christ if you do !

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them remain enemies and are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.
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False teaching, Christs death completely reconciled both parties, all back into harmony. If one remains unreconciled to God permanently, its simply because Christ death wasnt for them !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

Paul is teaching that Scripture declares God is Righteous, Just, and the Justifier of those who believe in Jesus.

Thats True, because Gods Justice for them has been satisfied by Christs Blood, so His Blood is the Just basis for God to Justify before Him, and declare righteous, those for whom Christ died ! Its a Just and Righteous thing for God to Justify any sinner Christ died for, which of course are His Elect. And who are those who believe in Jesus ? None but His People whom He came to save from their sins Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Is that the Jesus you believe in ? Who came to save a specific people ? Thats believing in Jesus, the True Jesus.

From Adam Clarke Commentary:

To declare, I say, at this time – To manifest now, by the dispensation of the Gospel, his righteousness, his infinite mercy; and to manifest it in such a way, that he might still appear to be the just God, and yet the justifier, the pardoner, of him who believeth in Jesus. Here we learn that God designed to give the most evident displays both of his justice and mercy. Of his justice, in requiring a sacrifice, and absolutely refusing to give salvation to a lost world in any other way; and of his mercy, in providing The sacrifice which his justice required. Thus, because Jesus was an atonement, a ransom price, for the sin of the world, therefore God can, consistently with his justice, pardon every soul that believeth in Jesus. This is the full discovery of God's righteousness, of his wonderful method of magnifying his law and making it honorable; of showing the infinite purity of his justice, and of saving a lost world.

Clarke is in error here, close but no cigar. God pardons, forgive them that has believed in Jesus, the one who came to save only His People from their sins Matt 1:21. And the sin of the world Jn 1:29 is restricted to His People. If Christ took away their sin, then He correspondingly took away their unbelief. So the whole world can only apply to the world of believers, since Christ took away their sin.

Now Gill writes:

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

To declare, I say, at this time, his righteousness,.... This end is further explained, it being to declare the righteousness of God "at this time", under the Gospel dispensation; in which there was such a display of the grace, mercy, and goodness of God:
that he might be just; that is, appear to be so: God is naturally and essentially just in himself; and he is evidentially so in all his works, particularly in redemption by Christ; and when and while he is

the justifier of him that believeth in Jesus: Jesus, the Saviour, is the object of faith, as he is the Lord our righteousness; the believer in Jesus is a real, and not a nominal one; God is the justifier of such in a declarative way, and God only, though not to the exclusion of the Son and Spirit; and which sentence of justification is pronounced by him on the foot of a perfect righteousness, which neither law nor justice can find fault with, but entirely approve of; and so he appears just and righteous, even though he justifies the sinner and the ungodly.

brightfame52 said:
Is he teaching that one must believe on Jesus Christ as a condition in order for God to Justify them ? God forbid, for that is Justification by the work of man, believing is an act of man !

No he is not teaching conditional Justification.

Scripture makes clear that we are justified by faith:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith ...

Yes, by Christ the object of Faith, which you deny

Confirmed further:

Romans 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Yes by Christ the object of Faith. BTW God provides the Faith

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Yes Faith does negate works when its understood that Faith in Christ is the Gift of Gods grace and not from oneself.

Your problem is that you claim that faith to believe is resident in the unregenerate flesh of the natural man, which cancels out grace and makes it a work, product of the flesh, putting you under law. Sorry, but you did it to yourself.