Speaking in Tongues
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I can see you are confusing the conversion experiences of the twelve Ephesus disciples with the Samaritans. Both accounts indicate baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus differs from receiving the Holy Ghost. Peter reveals being baptized in the name of Jesus is in fact being baptized in water. See Acts 10:47-48. I included all of the scriptures for your convenience:
Peter's confirmation concerning the NT water baptism:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
47 "Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:44-48
Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who were baptized by John the Baptist but did not realize they had to NT command to be water baptized in Jesus name. After being advised of this they were re-baptized in water and after that received the Holy Ghost:
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans were half Jewish-half Gentile)
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
THEN laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
Peter's confirmation concerning the NT water baptism:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
47 "Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord." Acts 10:44-48
Acts 19:2-6 (Disciples who were baptized by John the Baptist but did not realize they had to NT command to be water baptized in Jesus name. After being advised of this they were re-baptized in water and after that received the Holy Ghost:
"He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."
Acts 8:12-17 (Samaritans were half Jewish-half Gentile)
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
THEN laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost."
I disagree with your assessment that the same experience is not relevant for all living in the NT. Also, in an effort not to confuse people I thought it necessary to point out the account in Acts 19 pertains to the individuals of Ephesus. Whereas the Samaritan conversion experience is recorded in Acts 8:12-18. Understanding this makes it easier for people who aren't familiar with who is who. Both experiences, however, do reveal the same thing concerning the spiritual rebirth.
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At PentecostPeter already Had the Holy Spirit before the empowering of the Church, as Jesus said in the Gospel of John.
Tongues are not a salvation issue, as Peter was already saved before the day of Pentacost
What is your point?
And I Disagree it matters much, about Paul's belief because HE said he was taught by the Lord.
Tongues are not a salvation issue, as Peter was already saved before the day of Pentacost
What is your point? And I Disagree it matters much, about Paul's belief because HE said he was taught by the Lord
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There are diversities of tongues as Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians. What many fail to realize is that tongues flow from all those who have received God's GIFT. That Gift in fact being the actual Holy Ghost.
Whereas, one of the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit causes a person to operate in is speaking in tongues used for the edification of the church body upon being interpreted by someone with that spiritual gift.
I suggest paying close attention to what is being referenced where a gift is mentioned in scripture. i.e. notice what Jesus said in Luke 11:13; If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Jesus is in fact talking about asking God for His Holy Spirit NOT a spiritual gift such as tongues. However, as scripture confirms elsewhere, those who receive God's GIFT of the Holy Spirit will in fact speak in tongues. (Acts 2:2-4, 36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) The experience as I understand it restores the severed connection between man's renewed spirit and God's Spirit. It is through that connection that God imparts things directly into man.
Whereas, one of the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit causes a person to operate in is speaking in tongues used for the edification of the church body upon being interpreted by someone with that spiritual gift.
I suggest paying close attention to what is being referenced where a gift is mentioned in scripture. i.e. notice what Jesus said in Luke 11:13; If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
Jesus is in fact talking about asking God for His Holy Spirit NOT a spiritual gift such as tongues. However, as scripture confirms elsewhere, those who receive God's GIFT of the Holy Spirit will in fact speak in tongues. (Acts 2:2-4, 36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) The experience as I understand it restores the severed connection between man's renewed spirit and God's Spirit. It is through that connection that God imparts things directly into man.
Odd that you would imply I am distorting scripture, when I QUOTED it. You need to learn to read scripture for what it actually says.... not what you WANT it to say so that it supports your narrative...
Let's try this again.... with emphasis on important words
These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Please note that this "scripture" does NOT say IF they do this.... it says they WILL do all these things, in JESUS' NAME.
There is nothing ambiguous about this "scripture".... believers WILL do all these things.... as SIGNS to unbelievers.
It cannot be any more plain... at least to an honest reader.
Let's try this again.... with emphasis on important words
These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”
Please note that this "scripture" does NOT say IF they do this.... it says they WILL do all these things, in JESUS' NAME.
There is nothing ambiguous about this "scripture".... believers WILL do all these things.... as SIGNS to unbelievers.
It cannot be any more plain... at least to an honest reader.
That is NOT what happened, according to scripture...nowhere does it say that he was filled with the Spirit and then was baptized. Ananias told him he would receive his sight and be filled with the Spirit. Both of those things happened, but you are trying to change it around to fit your narrative.
You are getting the cart before the horse, and it goes directly against what Peter preached at Pentecost.
After Paul received his sight, he IMMEDIATELY rose up and was baptized. THAT is when he received the Spirit.... just as Peter had taught at Pentecost.
Peter did not say, "believe, let us lay hands on you, and you will receive the Spirit, oh, and then be baptized...."
He said "repent and be baptized and you will receive the Spirit." It cannot be explained any more simply than that.
You either believe one or the other.... it cannot be both.
You are getting the cart before the horse, and it goes directly against what Peter preached at Pentecost.
After Paul received his sight, he IMMEDIATELY rose up and was baptized. THAT is when he received the Spirit.... just as Peter had taught at Pentecost.
Peter did not say, "believe, let us lay hands on you, and you will receive the Spirit, oh, and then be baptized...."
He said "repent and be baptized and you will receive the Spirit." It cannot be explained any more simply than that.
You either believe one or the other.... it cannot be both.
To understand the gifts is a bit challenging. But if you're truly interested in truth, the answer is there and not that hard to discern.
REPOST
The gifts are a very different and complicated matter for most to understand.
First, to understand the gifts, you must understand the origin and to do so, go back to Luke 3:16, John the Baptist comments, and Luke 24:49, Jesus instructions to his apostles. Then look at Acts 1:4, 5, and 8. You'll see that this was for the apostles. Then look at Acts 2:1-4 on the day of Pentecost, and Acts 2:14-18.
What you'll see is that the gifts of the Spirit were for the apostles and was the power from on high as Jesus said in Luke 24:49, and it also fulfilled the prophesy of Joel.
Once the power was bestowed upon the apostles
which power was the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10, they possessed and used the power of the gifts as well as passed on the gifts by the laying on of their hands as noted in Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 8:14-19, and Acts 19:6.
So yes, others had these gifts also, but only by the laying on of the apostle's hands or through those whose hands were laid upon such as Stephen who also performed wonders and miracles as recorded in Acts 6:8 subsequent to the laying on of the apostle's hands as previously mentioned. There's much more that can be said about the gifts which is yet another discussion, but this should suffice for now.
Luke 3:16
16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 24:49
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4, 5, 8
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:1-4
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
Acts 2:14-18
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
REPOST
The gifts are a very different and complicated matter for most to understand.
First, to understand the gifts, you must understand the origin and to do so, go back to Luke 3:16, John the Baptist comments, and Luke 24:49, Jesus instructions to his apostles. Then look at Acts 1:4, 5, and 8. You'll see that this was for the apostles. Then look at Acts 2:1-4 on the day of Pentecost, and Acts 2:14-18.
What you'll see is that the gifts of the Spirit were for the apostles and was the power from on high as Jesus said in Luke 24:49, and it also fulfilled the prophesy of Joel.
Once the power was bestowed upon the apostles
which power was the miraculous gifts of the Spirit as noted in 1 Cor 12:8-10, they possessed and used the power of the gifts as well as passed on the gifts by the laying on of their hands as noted in Acts 5:12, Acts 6:6, Acts 8:14-19, and Acts 19:6.
So yes, others had these gifts also, but only by the laying on of the apostle's hands or through those whose hands were laid upon such as Stephen who also performed wonders and miracles as recorded in Acts 6:8 subsequent to the laying on of the apostle's hands as previously mentioned. There's much more that can be said about the gifts which is yet another discussion, but this should suffice for now.
Luke 3:16
16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Luke 24:49
49And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
Acts 1:4, 5, 8
4And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
8But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Acts 2:1-4
1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance
Acts 2:14-18
14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
P
I think one way to cure all these people who either do not understand tongues is for everyone is simply to ask them if they want to speak in tongues
I'm not coming back to argue it with anyone
ps: no I am not saying it is necessary for salvation. it is necessary for your own edification and changes your prayer life for the better
17But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ 18when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”e 19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.
20But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life.
v. 20 here does not say those of you who can pray in the Spirit....it is understood that people were and would pray in the Holy Spirit
but, you know, you don't have to believe that. after all, we all know we can interpret things any ole way and still be saved as long as we do actually accept Christ and understand all that means
no pressure. just the same offer that has been made by God to all believers. you're welcome
and again, if you want to debate it, do so between you and God because frankly, I seem to care less and less about Christians who argue what is plainly written in scripture or misinterpret and tell everyone else they wrong
no, I am not that person but you can have a good laugh at my expense. it has not cost me a thing
I'm not coming back to argue it with anyone
ps: no I am not saying it is necessary for salvation. it is necessary for your own edification and changes your prayer life for the better
17But you, beloved, remember what was foretold by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ 18when they said to you, “In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow after their own ungodly desires.”e 19These are the ones who cause divisions, who are worldly and devoid of the Spirit.
20But you, beloved, by building yourselves up in your most holy faith and praying in the Holy Spirit, 21keep yourselves in the love of God as you await the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you eternal life.
v. 20 here does not say those of you who can pray in the Spirit....it is understood that people were and would pray in the Holy Spirit
but, you know, you don't have to believe that. after all, we all know we can interpret things any ole way and still be saved as long as we do actually accept Christ and understand all that means
no pressure. just the same offer that has been made by God to all believers. you're welcome
and again, if you want to debate it, do so between you and God because frankly, I seem to care less and less about Christians who argue what is plainly written in scripture or misinterpret and tell everyone else they wrong
no, I am not that person but you can have a good laugh at my expense. it has not cost me a thing
P
I was saved when I was 5. I was alone when I accepted Christ.
At the age of 13 or 14 I was water baptized and made that decision myself at the prompting of the Holy Spirit
At the age of ...I think it was 18....I came to understand that the gifts are still in operation and are available to all and I received the infilling of the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues.
No one laid hands on me and again, I was alone. Jesus is the baptizer. We receive from God and if you want someone to pray over you, fine....but you do not need someone to pray over you. For the record I have prayed for people...without touching them...that they do receive the gift of tongues and they have received. You cannot teach a person tongues....those who do so, are wrong in their practice.
No they are not. People would have other people think so, but it is actually not difficult to understand them. It is also not difficulte to understand they have been badly abused by people and it is also abusive to say that what God gives is hard to understand.
The last people to say that about the Bible created a religion in which regular people were not allowed to read, let alone possess a Bible and we all know how that went
First let me apologize. We just see something different in the scripture.
What I see the scripture saying is that signs shall "follow" them. The concept is similar to the fruit of the Spirit. Meaning such things become visible as a direct result of the indwelling presence of God.
The signs referenced in the scripture are demons will come out of people, tongues will be spoken as a result of the presence of the Holy Ghost, people will remain healthy even if bitten by a venomous snake or having consumed poison, and people will receive healing. The main point is God's presence brings life not death. On the contrary these signs will not become visible for those who do not have the Holy Ghost; death is more likely to continue it's reign.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18
What I see the scripture saying is that signs shall "follow" them. The concept is similar to the fruit of the Spirit. Meaning such things become visible as a direct result of the indwelling presence of God.
The signs referenced in the scripture are demons will come out of people, tongues will be spoken as a result of the presence of the Holy Ghost, people will remain healthy even if bitten by a venomous snake or having consumed poison, and people will receive healing. The main point is God's presence brings life not death. On the contrary these signs will not become visible for those who do not have the Holy Ghost; death is more likely to continue it's reign.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." Mark 16:17-18
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I've mentioned it before. The experience is revealed in 3, and alluded to in 1 of the detailed records associated with all of humanity; Jews, Gentiles, Ephesus individuals, and Samaritans: (Acts 2:2-4, 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) As stated in Matthew 18:16, establishing truth on a subject results from at least 2-3 scriptures saying the same thing.
