Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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FreeGrace2 said:
Right! And, can be a disciple and not be saved. John 6
OK.
I guess you have a point here?
Is this your point?
That poster has it wrong. Being saved/justified is the FIRST thing that matters. Not the only thing.
After justification, the believer is commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit, something that very few believers even understand, because way too few pastors even teach how. Maybe they don't know themselves.
Believers who understand the spiritual life and growth, will earn eternal reward, while those who spend their life doing good works from their own will power (the flesh) will find all of them burned up at the judgment. 1 Cor 3:12-15, 2 Cor 5:10.
Salvation is guanteed at the beginning. Jesus said so in plain words. Once saved, the focus is how we end. Will we be rewarded and Jesus saying "well done, thou good and faithful servant" or something else, like, "you stupid idiot. I gave you everything you needed to bring me glory and honor, and you ignored it."
Right! And, can be a disciple and not be saved. John 6
OK.
I guess you have a point here?
Is this your point?
That poster has it wrong. Being saved/justified is the FIRST thing that matters. Not the only thing.
After justification, the believer is commanded to be filled with the Holy Spirit, something that very few believers even understand, because way too few pastors even teach how. Maybe they don't know themselves.
Believers who understand the spiritual life and growth, will earn eternal reward, while those who spend their life doing good works from their own will power (the flesh) will find all of them burned up at the judgment. 1 Cor 3:12-15, 2 Cor 5:10.
Salvation is guanteed at the beginning. Jesus said so in plain words. Once saved, the focus is how we end. Will we be rewarded and Jesus saying "well done, thou good and faithful servant" or something else, like, "you stupid idiot. I gave you everything you needed to bring me glory and honor, and you ignored it."
Everyone has conceded that as long as you also concede that the salvation can be through fire, you can suffer loss, you can be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, and that being saved doesn't mean you are a true disciple.
If you are an unbeliever then yes, being saved by faith is everything, you can't even start the race without that. But if you are a believer you need to
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
If you are an unbeliever then yes, being saved by faith is everything, you can't even start the race without that. But if you are a believer you need to
6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.
FreeGrace2 said:
My case couldn't be more straightforward. But you prefer to reject the words of Jesus.
When He gives the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Those are His words, not mine. So that's what you are rejecting.
Oh, good grief! Of course you are.
Are you really so challenged as to not be able to comprehend either verse?? They sure are clear enough.
You have no excuse.
John 5:24 tells us WHEN a person possesses eternal life: when they believe. Prove me wrong here.
John 10:28 tells us the result of being given eternal life: the recipient shall NEVER PERISH. Prove me wrong here.
My case couldn't be more straightforward. But you prefer to reject the words of Jesus.
When He gives the gift of eternal life, the recipient shall never perish. Those are His words, not mine. So that's what you are rejecting.
Oh, good grief! Of course you are.
Are you really so challenged as to not be able to comprehend either verse?? They sure are clear enough.
You have no excuse.
John 5:24 tells us WHEN a person possesses eternal life: when they believe. Prove me wrong here.
John 10:28 tells us the result of being given eternal life: the recipient shall NEVER PERISH. Prove me wrong here.
FreeGrace2 said:
Do you seriously believe that ol' Zacch wouldn't have been saved if he hadn't offered to repay what he had stolen??
Well then, just tell me what you really MEANT.
Do you seriously believe that ol' Zacch wouldn't have been saved if he hadn't offered to repay what he had stolen??
Well then, just tell me what you really MEANT.
Faith normally requires some showing cause for those who profess faith. Many times in the Bible, people had faith and they did something in obedience to show it. Just read Hebrews 11 for example.
If God says do something, and they waiver, or just completely neglect the command then that shows a lack of trust. People aren’t puppets or we wouldn’t be responsible for our sins, justice and righteousness would demand that, and punishing those who weren’t selected to salvation wouldn’t even make sense.
The faith as a gift thing, if you follow the rabbit trail far enough, causes the Bible to not make any sense. Just my opinion, but I’m confident this is true.
If God says do something, and they waiver, or just completely neglect the command then that shows a lack of trust. People aren’t puppets or we wouldn’t be responsible for our sins, justice and righteousness would demand that, and punishing those who weren’t selected to salvation wouldn’t even make sense.
The faith as a gift thing, if you follow the rabbit trail far enough, causes the Bible to not make any sense. Just my opinion, but I’m confident this is true.
Yes. Although I wouldn't call THE Gospel unto Salvation my "opinion". ANYTHING added or subtracted is a false or works, manmade gospel.
THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.
THE Gospel unto Salvation:
God wrapped Himself in human flesh in the form of His Son, Jesus the Messiah. Conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of a virgin. He suffered, was crucified, and died to pay OUR sin debt. He was raised to life from the grave to prove He had defeated death. If you confess Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that His Father resurrected Him to Life on the 3rd day, you WILL be saved. You will be filled, and sealed with the Holy Spirit, who will empower ALL to turn from their sins. The sin of adultery, lying, stealing, homosexuality, gossip, slander, drunkenness, covetousness, etc... And most importantly the sin of DEAD works, or a moral life in an attempt to EARN Salvation. He will also equip you to love like He did and do good works for HIS Glory.
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Again, this is the human, even carnal mind, of intellect. The Gospel is counter intuitive to man's intellect and reasoning.
The idea that there is NOTHING anyone can do, but have faith in Jesus' finished work, strikes at the heart of our intellect and pride.
Yet that is the Gospel.
The Holy Spirit indwells the Child of God and continuously sanctifies him to be more Christ-like. THIS results in the works so many want to add to His Gospel. Insulting to Him, and dangerous for us.
The idea that there is NOTHING anyone can do, but have faith in Jesus' finished work, strikes at the heart of our intellect and pride.
Yet that is the Gospel.
The Holy Spirit indwells the Child of God and continuously sanctifies him to be more Christ-like. THIS results in the works so many want to add to His Gospel. Insulting to Him, and dangerous for us.
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Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
We see this repeatedly played out with tele evangelists, Mega Pastors, Catholic Priests, etc. I would prefer not to have to itemize their abominable works (prostitutes, tax evasion, child trafficking, pedophilia, etc).
But their "professing that they know God" includes using OSAS as a basis to claim they are saved despite denying the Lord with their works.
My point and the point of others on this thread is that if you are saved your works will not deny your faith. Anyone can profess to know the Lord, doesn't mean they do. If their works deny the Lord then they are simply liars like their father, Satan, and like the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked in the gospels and who John the Baptist called a brood of vipers.
We see this repeatedly played out with tele evangelists, Mega Pastors, Catholic Priests, etc. I would prefer not to have to itemize their abominable works (prostitutes, tax evasion, child trafficking, pedophilia, etc).
But their "professing that they know God" includes using OSAS as a basis to claim they are saved despite denying the Lord with their works.
My point and the point of others on this thread is that if you are saved your works will not deny your faith. Anyone can profess to know the Lord, doesn't mean they do. If their works deny the Lord then they are simply liars like their father, Satan, and like the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked in the gospels and who John the Baptist called a brood of vipers.