Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[FreeGrace2]

This is what Jesus said

Jesus first mention of being saved

Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

So to endure to the end will require the blood, grace, mercy, fellowship, the power of the Spirit, so many things that are in given us in the New Testament.

Context determines the meaning of words.

18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.
19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say,
20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.
21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.
22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Jesus is speaking of end times here, per v.23 and His Second Advent. So v.22 is about living through the 7 year Tribulation. Not to the end of your life, applied to every believer. Know your context.

The Lord's second mention of being saved

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This shows how important this word is and how many overlook it that these would be the first two mentions of being saved by the Lord Jesus. We cannot endure to the end without faith, hope and love. We can't do it in our own strength.

Again you miss the context, which is clearly the 7 year Tribulation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Truly shocking when to say that a believer believes that salvation is a complex issue.

There is nothing in the bible that I can see that says this.

Right.

And the fact is that Jesus never said it was complex.

Definitely.

Come to me all who are weary and I will give you rest.

Matthew 11:28-30
28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Very simple.

 

[ZNP]

Faith is where the battle takes place

Jude 3 Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people.

Dear Friends is also translated Beloved. This epistle is written "to the beloved", to the Bride that will be raptured prior to the tribulation.

This verse reveals that his original intention was to write about the common salvation. However there was a divine compulsion on him that changed the direction of this letter. This term we translate as "compelled" is used in Acts to say that Jesus was compelled to suffer and die on the cross. This term is also used by Paul who says he is compelled to preach the gospel and woe to him if he doesn't.

Urge you to contend for the faith -- that is the theme of the letter. The challenge that you and I are being given.

Contend for the faith is to agonize on, to strenuously labor on the faith. This is an active military word (do not confuse it with contentious that is a different word). In many respects this refers back to the Lord telling us to watch and Paul telling us to watch because wolves will sneak in, and the warnings concerning the apostasy and the falling away and the heaping up of teachers for their itching ears, and giving heed to fables and old wives tales. To be an unflinching witness is an example of contending for the faith. Standing against those who deny or compromise with the whole counsel of God is another example of contending for the faith. The book of Galatians where Paul stood against "another gospel" is an example of contending for the faith.

We need to prove that we are in the faith. In other words faith is more than believing. When you go through a trial by faith you prove your faith. Abraham offering up Isaac proved his faith. The apostasy departs from the faith. Faithful teaching established the church. We are all instructed to stand fast in the faith.

Faith is where the battle takes place. The apostasy is trying to peel you away from the faith. The apostasy is based on removing the salt from the word of God so that is has lost its saltiness and is good for nothing.

For example, how do you explain Judas? He was never saved. So even though he was with Jesus in His ministry, and for 3+ years was a disciple and brought people to the Lord and did works of miracles, never saved. OK, but then that could apply to anyone serving the Lord. They could be involved in the mission work, they could be preaching the word, bringing people to the Lord, doing works of miracles, so how do you know if they are saved? The doctrine is good for nothing but to be tossed out, now if anyone denies the Lord or returns to the world or anything else they were never saved. OK, but hold it, you said that if you pray this prayer you will always be saved? Yes, it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't help any person.

Deuteronomy 4:2 Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the Lord your God that I give you.

Why do they make such a big issue over getting baptized? Simple if you are not saved by being baptized then you don't need to be baptized. But hold it, the Bible says to be baptized, aren't they subtracting commands of the Lord from the Bible? Yes they are, this is the apostasy.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll. 19 And if anyone takes words away from this scroll of prophecy, God will take away from that person any share in the tree of life and in the Holy City, which are described in this scroll.

 

[ZNP]

Do not be deceived

1Cor 6:9,10 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

This is the word of God. Do not remove this word. Your "once saved always saved" doctrine will not save you if you continue to live in sin.

Galatians 6:7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows.

You will reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh you will reap death. This is true even if you think "you were saved twenty years ago".

Ephesians 5:5,6 For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person— such a man is an idolater— has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient.

Once saved always saved is empty words. If it turns out that you aren't saved they will simply say that like Judas you were never saved. Empty words without any power.

1John 3:7,8 Little children, let no one lead you astray. He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning.

It sounds OK, they quote a few verses, but look at the lifestyle. The pastors and churches that proclaim this. Are they living in sin? Is this doctrine simply to allow them to play church while living in sin?

Gal 5:19-21 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

The bottom line in all of this is assurance. Assurance of our standing with the Lord now, and in the afterlife. Both sides claim assurance; the only disagreement is about whether that assurance can ever be in jeopardy.

I think both sides can agree that our Christian walk is one of faith, not works. The disagreement is over whether a person once cleansed, once sealed by the Holy Spirit, once forgiven and justified can abandon their faith and fall from grace. The scriptures give enough warnings and examples to clearly show that it is possible. Yes, there are also scriptures that assure us He will protect and keep us, and we should take comfort in them. But we have to at least acknowledge all the other scriptures that warn about falling away. To me, ignoring them demonstrates self-deception and an insincerity about loving the truth.

 

[ZNP]

The bottom line in all of this is assurance. Assurance of our standing with the Lord now, and in the afterlife. Both sides claim assurance; the only disagreement is about whether that assurance can ever be in jeopardy.

I think both sides can agree that our Christian walk is one of faith, not works. The disagreement is over whether a person once cleansed, once sealed by the Holy Spirit, once forgiven and justified can abandon their faith and fall from grace. The scriptures give enough warnings and examples to clearly show that it is possible. Yes, there are also scriptures that assure us He will protect and keep us, and we should take comfort in them. But we have to at least acknowledge all the other scriptures that warn about falling away. To me, ignoring them demonstrates self-deception and an insincerity about loving the truth.

I think there is something much more insidious here and that is doctrines that tell us we do not need to pray.

1. If God has preordained everyone to be saved who is to be saved, then no need to pray for people to get saved.

2. If the people who fall away were never saved in the first place then no need to pray for them

 

[ZNP]

Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

 

[Grandpa]

I think both sides can agree that our Christian walk is one of faith, not works.

What does faith say?

Does faith say that the Lord Jesus will save a person and then keep them in His Hand?

Or, does faith say that Our Sovereign God will draw someone to come to Christ to be saved and then later determine, because of whatever reasons, that Salvation was a mistake and let that person fall away?


One is faith and the other is complete lack of faith and lack of understanding of who God Is and what He Does.

 

[ResidentAlien]

What does faith say?

Does faith say that the Lord Jesus will save a person and then keep them in His Hand?

Or, does faith say that Our Sovereign God will draw someone to come to Christ to be saved and then later determine, because of whatever reasons, that Salvation was a mistake and let that person fall away?

One is faith and the other is complete lack of faith and lack of understanding of who God Is and what He Does.

I don't know Grandpa. All I know is I'm very assured in my walk with Him; no one can take that away.

 

[ZNP]

What does faith say?

What does faith say?

Well, let's see

Deuteronomy 6:14-15 You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 8:19 It shall come about if you ever forget the Lord your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you will surely perish.

It is reasonable to say that this is an Old Testament warning, we are in the New Testament, so our covenant may be different.

1Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So although we have a new covenant the things done and said in the Old Covenant were our examples as a warning to us that we should not lust after evil. But in case we still are argumentative Paul goes into detail

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

How is there any dispute over what the New Testament says? But if you still didn't get it Paul concludes:

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But, but, but doesn't this contradict the Lord's word about no one being able to take us out of His hand? Paul continues

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Nope, God provides a way of escape. Whether or not you take it is up to you.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

We will be judged by the same judgement that we have judged. If you flee from idolatry, great, that tells me what your heart is, if you say "I don't need to flee because John 5" then that also tells me what your heart is.

 

[Grandpa]

What does faith say?

Well, let's see

Deuteronomy 6:14-15 You shall not follow other gods, any of the gods of the peoples who surround you, for the Lord your God in the midst of you is a jealous God; otherwise the anger of the Lord your God will be kindled against you, and He will wipe you off the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 8:19 It shall come about if you ever forget the Lord your God and go after other gods and serve them and worship them, I testify against you today that you will surely perish.

It is reasonable to say that this is an Old Testament warning, we are in the New Testament, so our covenant may be different.

1Corinthians 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

So although we have a new covenant the things done and said in the Old Covenant were our examples as a warning to us that we should not lust after evil. But in case we still are argumentative Paul goes into detail

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. 8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. 9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

How is there any dispute over what the New Testament says? But if you still didn't get it Paul concludes:

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

But, but, but doesn't this contradict the Lord's word about no one being able to take us out of His hand? Paul continues

13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

Nope, God provides a way of escape. Whether or not you take it is up to you.

14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

We will be judged by the same judgement that we have judged. If you flee from idolatry, great, that tells me what your heart is, if you say "I don't need to flee because John 5" then that also tells me what your heart is.

I don't see faith speaking anywhere in this.

You have spoken what fear would say.

Same thing the 10 fearful spies did. But what did the 2 spies say that had faith? (Joshua and Caleb)

 

[ResidentAlien]

"Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." 2 Corinthians 7:1

 

[ZNP]

I don't see faith speaking anywhere in this.

You have spoken what fear would say.

Same thing the 10 fearful spies did. But what did the 2 spies say that had faith? (Joshua and Caleb)

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God. You need to listen to the word of God to see faith speaking.

 

[justpassinthrough]

You ask me as if you are not sure what I believe, yet at the same time, imply it as though you do.... you have no understanding. Do those who are void of understanding have eternal life abiding in them?

Do you believe murders, those who hate, have eternal life remaining in them?

 

[justpassinthrough]

So Jesus Christ’s death and resurrection are not good enough for your eternal salvation but merely an open door giving you the opportunity to justify yourself as being worthy of salvation. That’s not grace, that’s self-righteous works salvation, and it’s unbiblical.

Here is who will receive eternal salvation —


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



If you deny this scripture to be the truth, then please show me the scripture that says those who are disobedient to Him receive eternal salvation.






JPT

 

[justpassinthrough]

Christ came for the disobedient and gave them eternal life.

Yes, amen… if they repent and obey the Gospel.



in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Thessalonians 1:8



For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
1 Peter 4:17




JPT

 

[FreeGrace2]

Here is who will receive eternal salvation —

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9

If you deny this scripture to be the truth, then please show me the scripture that says those who are disobedient to Him receive eternal salvation.
JPT

Obey what, exactly? Please be as specific as the Bible is on this subject.

 

[Snacks]

Here is who will receive eternal salvation —


And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9



If you deny this scripture to be the truth, then please show me the scripture that says those who are disobedient to Him receive eternal salvation.






JPT

We are perfected in God’s eyes the nanosecond we place our faith in Jesus Christ. That’s the obeying God demands.

 

[ZNP]

Obey what, exactly? Please be as specific as the Bible is on this subject.

1. Obey the voice of God.

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

2. Keep the covenant given to us

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

3. Obey the commandments of Jesus

Deuteronomy 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Yes we have a new covenant and we are not under the Law, but Moses was a type of Christ and Jesus has also given us commands.

4. The apostle's fellowship

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

2Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.


5. The Gospel

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


6. The Truth

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Obey what, exactly? Please be as specific as the Bible is on this subject.

1. Obey the voice of God.

That's hardly being specific. The ENTIRE Bible is the Word of God. Are you saying you have to obey consistently EVERY command found in the Bible?

Didn't you get the memo that the Jews weren't able to keep the Law?

Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

This isn't about Abe getting saved. It's about Abe's progeny being blessed because he was obedient.

2. Keep the covenant given to us

What covenant did you have in mind?

Exodus 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

OK, spoken to Moses and the Jews. Are you Jewish?

3. Obey the commandments of Jesus

How is that specific? Jesus gave many many commands. You probably can't even note them all.

Deuteronomy 11:27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the Lord your God, which I command you this day: 28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the Lord your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

Yes we have a new covenant and we are not under the Law, but Moses was a type of Christ and Jesus has also given us commands.

Can you list ALL of them. You know, the ones by which we will be saved if we keep them?

4. The apostle's fellowship

Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

2Thessalonians 3:14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

Do yo seriously think that any human is able to be consistently obedient to all that you have noted? You are apparently not very familiar with the human condition.

5. The Gospel

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

2Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

1Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Please explain specifically what it means to "obey the gospel". Can you do that?

6. The Truth

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

1Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

OK, now be specific about how to "obey the truth".

Do you know what it means to be "specific". Apparently not. It means to explain the details.

Now, can you explain specifically how to obey all these commands you have noted?

The next question will be: have YOU obeyed all those commands consistently all your life?

If not, then specifically explain how many you have to obey and what percentage of consistency do you have to obey them.

Frankly, your system of salvation is VERY VERY complicated and IMPOSSIBLE to follow.

I will stick with the grace gospel of salvation since I know that I am totally unable to consistently obey a number of commands.