Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

[PennEd]

I placed the emphasis on the phrase, 'they believed for a while'.

You then attempted to establish another idea, the idea that they had no firm root?

As I said before, this verse (Luke 8:13), is a contradiction of the idea that someone. Who falls away from their faith in Jesus never believed in the first place.

The mere mention of the phrase 'to fall away' by the apostles, tells you in no uncertain terms. That falling away from the living faith is a fact of life.

The parable also tells you that the seed in each different location germinated. The seed believed!

I can explain it to you, but unfortunately I can’t comprehend it for you.

 

[Franc254]

we have grace but then we can also loose that grace Romans 1 explains that

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

we have grace but then we can also loose that grace Romans 1 explains that

Grace is unmerited. Hence it can not be earned. So it can not be lost.

 

[Chester]

LOL! Mr. Penned: You know me well enough to know where I stand on OSAS, but then at the same time it is obvious you do not understand my position deeply either. Because none of your choices are what I believe, though the wording of the first one is the closest to what I would say. Your first option actually should be much sharper and clearer if by it you mean that once a person is saved they can never be lost again!

Hence I haven't marked any of your choices as of yet: I wasn't going to mark the first one or you might think you converted me! LOL!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Peter did not lose salvation
Peter did not stop being the rock
Peter did not stop being the apostle to the jews. Or the leader at the church in jerusalem.

peter sinned, and was corrected.

You don;t lose eternal life, then get it back then lose it then get it back.

Eternal is forever.

but had Peter walked away and never returned he would have forfeited his Salvation.
God never took it away but Peter could have threw it away if that was what he wanted to do.

 

[Franc254]

Grace is unmerited. Hence it can not be earned. So it can not be lost.

lets see what the bible says about Grace lets start from Ephesians the 2nd chapter and verses 8-9

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast"....so First of all we realize that the grace comes through faith ...faith in Jesus and the grace is described as a gift from God...now how about somebody who was in the faith but the abndoned the faith does grace still exist...now the book of 1st Timothy the 4th Chapter and we will start from verse 1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." Now someone who has abandoned the faith to follow the teachings of Demons first of all will loose grace because it is a gift from God and it can also be taken away....Hebrews chapter 10 and we will start from verses 26 through to 29
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Now you cant insult the spirit of Grace and then think that the grace will continue living within you what happens after that is judgement...So grace can be taken to one who refuses to repent and turn from his sinful ways

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

would have God allowed the Tempter to tempt JOB had God known Job would have cursed God and died?

NO, God knew Job would remain faithful.

but that leaves a very important example here. if Job would have cursed God and died, would have God allowed him to be tempted like he was?

 

[Franc254]

but had Peter walked away and never returned he would have forfeited his Salvation.
God never took it away but Peter could have threw it away if that was what he wanted to do.

I dont think peter was the rock

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Verse 22 is talking about the same people from 9-10. Even verse 1.

The unjust.

Them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness.

False Prophets.

Verse 22 tells us the SOW was WASHED and then returned to the mud.

how is it possible you keep IGNORING the SOW was WASHED and then returned to the mud?

what do you think WASHED means?

means she was SAVED and then went back to her old sinful ways.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after escaping from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [[((they))]] are again entangled in these and overcome, their last state becomes worse than the first.

the real question is WHO are THEY in this Verse.

from the Bible Hub:
It seems more likely that he has in mind the ones the false teachers [[are leading astray]]. This seems to suggest the newer, less mature, or less experienced believers.

so this is about BELIEVERS returning to their sinful ways and LOSING THEIR SALVATION!


like i stated in an earlier post, i stopped believing in the Hillbilly Doctrines long ago!

 

[ResidentAlien]

2 Peter 2:20 For if, after escaping from the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, [[((they))]] are again entangled in these and overcome, their last state becomes worse than the first.

the real question is WHO are THEY in this Verse.

from the Bible Hub:
It seems more likely that he has in mind the ones the false teachers [[are leading astray]]. This seems to suggest the newer, less mature, or less experienced believers.

so this is about BELIEVERS returning to their sinful ways and LOSING THEIR SALVATION!

I agree they're believers (or at least once were) but it seems more likely to me they are the false teachers from v. 1. If you start in v. 1 and follow the context all the way through, the subject continues to be the false teachers, not those who are being led astray. I thought I might agree with Bible Hub but the full context doesn't allow it.

 

[Chester]

So am I "eternally saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and ONLY Jesus keeps me saved." Amen! Hallelujah! I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He can and will keep me saved. I am not leaving the faith and will not be swayed by the wiles of the Devil. You will see me in Heaven! Will I meet you there?

And I emphatically do not hold to OSAS. No way will I accept that doctrine. I would have to give up my emphatic assurance of salvation.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

but had Peter walked away and never returned he would have forfeited his Salvation.
God never took it away but Peter could have threw it away if that was what he wanted to do.

no, he would not have.

Because God does not make mistakes.

God even told him how he would die.

Unlike you and me. God knows everything. Thats why he can give eternal life And adopt and elect his children.

Because he knows birth till death.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

lets see what the bible says about Grace lets start from Ephesians the 2nd chapter and verses 8-9

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast"....so First of all we realize that the grace comes through faith ...faith in Jesus and the grace is described as a gift from God...now how about somebody who was in the faith but the abndoned the faith does grace still exist...now the book of 1st Timothy the 4th Chapter and we will start from verse 1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons." Now someone who has abandoned the faith to follow the teachings of Demons first of all will loose grace because it is a gift from God and it can also be taken away....Hebrews chapter 10 and we will start from verses 26 through to 29
"If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?" Now you cant insult the spirit of Grace and then think that the grace will continue living within you what happens after that is judgement...So grace can be taken to one who refuses to repent and turn from his sinful ways

My friend you need to look deeper. And not just look for select passages.

People have abandoned THE FAITH 9the gospel) because they DID NOT HAVE FAITH.

No different than a jew who started to walk with the church and the faith. But their true faith was always in the law. So they abandoned THE FAITH the gospel) and went back to what they truly believed.

As for sin

John said whoever is born of God can not live in sin, because they have been born of God

What is it about people who deny the power of God.?

Does God save? Yes.. In fact, we who are justified BY HIS BLOOD SHALL BE SAVED from his wrath..(rom 5)

Does God change people?? Yes (he who began a good work WILL complete it)

Does God make mistakes? No

so why do people insist that God fails to change people, and gives eternal life to people KNOWING they will depart from the church and become antichrists??

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

So am I "eternally saved, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and ONLY Jesus keeps me saved." Amen! Hallelujah! I know whom I have believed and am persuaded that He can and will keep me saved. I am not leaving the faith and will not be swayed by the wiles of the Devil. You will see me in Heaven! Will I meet you there?

And I emphatically do not hold to OSAS. No way will I accept that doctrine. I would have to give up my emphatic assurance of salvation.

apart from the fact that once a person is saved, they are always saved

You have no assurance.

Sorry my friend. You contradict yourself. You can’t have assurance if salvation can be lost.. The most you can have is a false hope

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

no, he would not have.

Because God does not make mistakes.

God even told him how he would die.

Unlike you and me. God knows everything. Thats why he can give eternal life And adopt and elect his children.

Because he knows birth till death.

Peter was a Disciple and hand picked by God. normal Believers are invited by other Believers and eventually led to the alter. Peter had a purpose and we read about it in the Word of God so he is different than most Believers today.

the other points you made about telling Peter how he would die came after Peter's Denial and Yeshua's Resurrection. but in between the Moment he Denied and he met the risen Yeshua, he could have walked away.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Peter was a Disciple and hand picked by God. normal Believers are invited by other Believers and eventually led to the alter. Peter had a purpose and we read about it in the Word of God so he is different than most Believers today.

the other points you made about telling Peter how he would die came after Peter's Denial and Yeshua's Resurrection. but in between the Moment he Denied and he met the risen Yeshua, he could have walked away.

Notice how jesus restored him

Did he judge him?

Did He yell at him?

Did he tell him to come back or else?

No, he said do you love me, feed my sheep. Peter could not even tell Jesus he Agape loved him.. Yet jesus still told him to feed.

Gods ways are not our ways. God does not make mistakes.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Notice how jesus restored him

Did he judge him?

Did He yell at him?

Did he tell him to come back or else?

No, he said do you love me, feed my sheep. Peter could not even tell Jesus he Agape loved him.. Yet jesus still told him to feed.

Gods ways are not our ways. God does not make mistakes.

Peter did not run away but returned and was with the Others when God made Himself known to them after His Resurrection.

 

[Chester]

apart from the fact that once a person is saved, they are always saved

You have no assurance.

Sorry my friend. You contradict yourself. You can’t have assurance if salvation can be lost.. The most you can have is a false hope

My assurance is not based on a doctrine or a theological debate. My assurance is based on the fact that I know Jesus Christ personally: I have walked with Him, and am walking with Him, He holds my hand as a friend and as a companion. He is as a song says - "everything to me": My assurance is because I know Him: and knowing Him means I possess eternal life: and I love Him, and He loves me.

You may say what you want: but I know who I believe and I know He will keep me!

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

now, it's very silly to sit here and say we could walk away from God when as Believers we know we depend upon Him for Everything that happens within our personal lives. this very moment as i type my thoughts i know and believe whole heartedly i am nothing without God and NEED Him more than the day before.

but in knowing how i feel and believe because my heart and mind is set towards God, i also know [even though i would not ever do it] i could walk away from God and pursue things that interest me but are Opposite of God's Will for me. but in my Walk in and with God, those things don't matter. but i could make them matter. i just don't want to make them matter.

now, God is never going to leave nor forsake me. but if for some stupid reason i chose to go after those things, God cannot stop me either. so part of my Security in God is by my own Will to Stay with God. God did everything for my Salvation, but he cannot keep me from leaving Him if i was to ever choose to do so. that would be kidnapping and i have never read where God kidnapped humans to remain as Followers. i have only read where Great men of God have said, I WILL CHOOSE THIS DAY WHOM TO SERVE.