Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?

[FreeGrace2]

Not good with words forgive me..sorry for so long post Not here to offend... I have always wondered why "Pre-Trib" tends to get treated hmm not as nice as mid or Post Trib does odd huh.

If you check out the other threads about end times, you'll see how the supposed nice-guy "pre-tribbers" post to everyone else who disagrees with them.

For something that's not true one has to make sure to attack it and make fun of it and those that believe it.

If you have looked through all the posts on this thread, you'll see more "attack" from the pre-tribbers. And more bluster about how "solid" their view is. All the while producing no evidence at all.

So maybe here it can be said "Which no one has ever brought forth a single scripture that states this pre-trib mandate. " The same exact words you know can be said for MID/POST right?

This isn't true at all. You really need to follow ALL the posts before making these kind of statements.

1 Cor 15:23 says plainly the singular resurrection of the saved will occur "when He comes", which is the Second Advent. And then there is 2 Thess 2:1 which plainly says the same thing. So post-trip resurrection is a FACT.

Still all of this is getting made fun of by others. So why debate talk about it if one cant treat it seriously? Some really believe in pre-trib and your truly not helping them by making fun of what they believe.

Many verses have been shown to them and they just ignore them.

Yeah.. Jesus coming before the great trib.. lets make fun of them.

They get made fun of because they brag about how solid their view is even though they have NO verses about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

 

[DavidTree]

Just so you know pretrib does not have two raptures, at the end of the tribulation we see the surviving saints as those who enter as mortals to populate the millennial kingdom, our pre mill post trib brothers have all the believers removed at the Lords return and those who rejected Christ are the mortals who enter the kingdom.

Yes those who took the mark, those who mistreated the saints and beheaded the saints, those who rejected Jesus and accepted the man of Sin, these survivers when Jesus returns enter the millennial kingdom from there point of view!
They get to live for 1000yrs in the Kingdom and its physical blessings before they meet there deserved doom.

I however see more like in Matt 25, No rapture but a gathering of people(the survivors) and Jesus will sort em out.

Mat 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations(Can mean people): and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

You have created another false teaching claiming that the surviving Saints enter the millenial kingdom as mortals.

The error of pr-trib just leads to more and more errors which in fact are false teachings.

SEE here: pre-tribbers claim 1 Thess 4:13-18 is about pre-trib rapture and not His Second Coming

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Can you SEE the error now of pre-trib???

 

[cv5]

I have always wondered why "Pre-Trib" tends to get treated hmm not as nice as mid or Post Trib does odd huh.

Gal 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I will use color and bold type for purposes of better comprehension should @FG2 and @presidente request it........

 

[Clayman]

You have created another false teaching claiming that the surviving Saints enter the millenial kingdom as mortals.

The error of pr-trib just leads to more and more errors which in fact are false teachings.

You say this like its the first time you have heard this? That the survivers of the Lords second coming are believers who are mortal and enter the millennial kingdom?

SEE here: pre-tribbers claim 1 Thess 4:13-18 is about pre-trib rapture and not His Second Coming

Yep I would agree with them, its about His coming for the bride not the second advent.

Brothers, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death,c so that you will not grieve like the rest, who are without hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

Amen

Can you SEE the error now of pre-trib???

All I know is I agree with the verses that you provided if your thinking they mean something different to what I think they mean you may have to point out what your thinking.

 

[presidente]

Bro...you know full well that I am ALWAYS more than willing to sit down and speak with post-tribbers. But as you know, there is a massive backlog of scriptures that you have not, or more likely cannot respond to in a cogent, rational honest-hearted manner. Lets have you attend to those first....shall we?

"Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee."

Interesting dodge. Instead of answering serious questions to show some actual evidence for this extra resurrection, you go off on only vaguely relevant tangent, asking a question of your own, presumably to distract from your own lack of answers.

If I were to answer your question, my answer would be the same as yours... to generate some speculative answer. Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection. There were regular resurrections before Jesus, where people were resurrected into mortal bodies, like Lazarus, but could die again. Whether these guys lived out their lives for a long time, died instantly, or whatever, you can just make up an answer, but the Bible doesn't say.


But what does that have to do with the question at hand? The resurrections we are talking about aren't like the few we read about in the OT, the resurrection of Lazarus, the son of the widow of Nain, etc.

Also, this is not evidence for Jesus coming more than once. You appear to be grasping at straws.

Do you have any solid evidence for pre-trib? Specific verses. And I mean something solid, not loose arguments that imply that tribulational saints are appointed unto wrath instead of appointed to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, or John being told to 'come up hither' supposedly meaning the church will be raptured before the tribulation.

 

[presidente]

Gal 4:29
But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

I will use color and bold type for purposes of better comprehension should @FG2 and @presidente request it........

I use an eye-friendly add-on to my browser which changes the light-bulb color background many computer users use, but which also filters out a lot of color coding.

Web page backgrounds used to be gray. For some reason, Microsoft decided we all needed to stare at a lightbulb and did away with our ability to easily change background colors after XP.

 

[presidente]

I'll get the popcorn!

For the cricket chirping show.

 

[cv5]

Instead of answering serious questions to show some actual evidence for this extra resurrection, you go off on only vaguely relevant tangent, asking a question of your own, presumably to distract from your own lack of answers.

Aren't you the "nobody never ever, no way, no how, goes to heaven in their resurrected glorified bodies" guy?

Well....these people were believers, had died, then God "egeirō"-ed (g1453) them PRECISELY as Christ was raised. And don't forget the context and timing. You know.....immediately AFTER the resurrection of Jesus. Wow I wonder why the text is structured in this way huh?

"Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee."

 

[presidente]

Aren't you the "nobody never ever, no way, no how, goes to heaven in their resurrected glorified bodies" guy?

No. I have pointed out that the Bible does not say that Jesus takes the church up to heaven after rapture and before the 1000 years. The New Jerusalem descends out of heaven in Revelation, so maybe the church is there during the destruction by fire, but that's just a little bit speculative. Whether resurrected individuals can fly to heaven after the resurrection, I do not know. But they will be manifest as sons of God, and angels can apparently enter heaven.

Well....these people were believers, had died, then God "egeirō"-ed (g1453) them PRECISELY as Christ was raised. And don't forget the context and timing. You know.....immediately AFTER the resurrection of Jesus. Wow I wonder why the text is structured in this way huh?

"Matt 27:32-33
And the graves opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose (g1453).
And came out of the graves after His resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And what did this group do post-resurrection? Go back to their families, tentmaking, fishing and herds and flocks? I seriously doubt it.

Again, the Bible does not say? Is this your super strong evidence for pre-trib?

 

[DavidTree]

You say this like its the first time you have heard this? That the survivers of the Lords second coming are believers who are mortal and enter the millennial kingdom?

Yep I would agree with them, its about His coming for the bride not the second advent.

Amen

All I know is I agree with the verses that you provided if your thinking they mean something different to what I think they mean you may have to point out what your thinking.

#1. What makes you think that 1 Thess 4:13-18 is not the Second Coming of Christ

#2. Where in the Scriptures is there any prophecy or spoken dictum of multiple Returns(Second Third, etc) of the Lord Jesus Christ.

#3. Where in the Scriptures is any dictum given of a pre-trib rapture since it is not given in the 1 & 2 Thess letters.

#4. Do you realize the entrapment you are in by disavowing the Second Coming of Christ as it is written in the Scriptures?

 

[cv5]

Is this your super strong evidence for pre-trib?

Try to keep up will you. It is evidence that individuals are resurrected to glory and go to Heaven.

 

[presidente]

Try to keep up will you. It is evidence that individuals are resurrected to glory and go to Heaven.

You didn't show that part. Your building doctrine on some kind of assumption.

This is also before Christ rose. Christ is the firstfruits of the resurrection. He says elsewhere that the angels of heaven neither marry nor are given in marriage. The sons of the resurrection are like the angels of heaven.

Do you think it would have been wrong for Lazarus to marry after he was resurrected, assuming he was single? If a church prayed and God raised someone from the dead in answer to their prayers (e.g. like Irenaeus reported in the second or third century), do you think that person would not be allowed to marry?

 

[presidente]

Well....it seems that you have just added yet another new category to those "Schrödinger saints" which were created by that zany @presidente fellow. Good job buddy.....

"@presidente said"
"Don't use bad translations for fine doctrinal points. Actual 'died in the great tribulation' does some bad damage to your pre-trib position on this issue, but real translation say 'come out of.' The 'translation' is doing the interpreting here. What version are you using. "

@cv5 replied:
Congrats bro. Only you could have created a brand-new category of "Schrödinger cat" saints.
We don't know if they are dead or alive, in heaven or on earth.

Good job buddy....."

To quote FreeGrace 2,

"Your posts are getting just emptier and emptier. You provide nothing to the discussion. Just childish silliness."

I don't know what you are trying to say. I had to look up Schrodinger's cat the first time you mentioned it. It's not funny. It doesn't depict what I said anyway. Just your imagination.

Here it isn't clear who you are quoting. And your choice of font and color just makes everything hard to read.

Shaka when the walls fell.

I don't know what you are trying to say.

If you don't have anything to say, say nothing at all.

 

[cv5]

I don't know what you are trying to say.

What I am trying to say is that anyone who thinks that the tribulation saints (clearly stated to have been beheaded during the trib) may NOT have actually died because there is no scripture explicitly saying so (which is exactly what you said) is nuttier than on Oh Henry! bar.

 

[cv5]

This is also before Christ rose.

Wrong again genius.

Matt 27:53
And came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection.

 

[presidente]

What I am trying to say is that anyone who thinks that the tribulation saints (clearly stated to have been beheaded during the trib) may NOT have actually died because there is no scripture explicitly saying so (which is exactly what you said) is nuttier than on Oh Henry! bar.

What in the world are you talking about? When did I ever say such a thing?

 

[presidente]

Wrong again genius.

Matt 27:53
And came out of the graves AFTER His resurrection.

Read the context. This was at the end of the crucifixion.


50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

The passage goes on to talk about Jesus body being wrapped

59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth,
60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.

It looks really bad if you are sarcastic when you are wrong.

 

[presidente]

Oops. It could be interpreted that way. It doesn't say whether they resurrected before or after Christ. They came out after Christ's resurrection.

But it doesn't say they went to heaven, or were eternally resurrected, or ascended. All that is speculation.

 

[presidente]

@cv5

I'm noticing a pattern hear. Supposedly something about the elders is supposed to prove the pre-trib rapture. Your speculation about how the dead saints were raised after the crucifixion who appeared to many after the resurrection of Christ is supposed to prove something about the rapture.

What I notice is you don't have solid arguments, just speculation. You don't show where the scripture teaches that Christ returns more than once after the ascension and before the thousand years. Why is that?

Waiting for a dodge and gif instead of a direct response.

I do have another question-- if these are your evidences for pre-trib, why be pre-trib?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Oops. It could be interpreted that way. It doesn't say whether they resurrected before or after Christ. They came out after Christ's resurrection.

But it doesn't say they went to heaven, or were eternally resurrected, or ascended. All that is speculation.

It is my understanding that they did not go to heaven with Jesus (when He did His "I ascend" that very day, ON FIRSTFRUIT, His resurrection day John 20:17).

I believe that whereas (and while) He went up, the "many" (resurrected OT saints--again "many" not all) entered into the holy city, and appeared to many (Matt27:53).





[this also corresponds with the (overall) "pattern" I referred to earlier in this thread]