Thief in the Night-- Pretrib or Second Coming?
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We don't know for sure whether 'access' to the 3rd heaven will be given during the 1000-year reign of Christ; however, we can be sure that no trips will be made prior to the start of it.
When I originally read your post, I thought you were referring to the GWTJ - and, I know that no one will escape that day...
That is what I am saying to you.
Yep - and most don't spend 99% of their time and energy trying to make themselves "look good" and everyone else "something less"...
Have you read/seen this? :
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Of course, the meaning of this word does not apply to this issue 100% - but, nonetheless, I thought I would give you something to look up...
Nothing wrong with some good honest innocent picking-and-teasing.
Just let it be for edification and not turn into ill will, insult, or offence.
Everyone should "have thick-enough skin"; albeit, there is no reason to make "deep cuts" that injure - "friendly jabs" ('pokes') are 'received' much better...
FYI - I am about to take a break from this thread - and, in fact - "very highly likely" - CC altogether - "for a while"... (weeks? We shall see...)
FreeGrace2 said:
Who said it was typical? Not me.
Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
In fact, your "doubt" is laid to rest by the account of Lazarus anyway. So you don't have to be a doubting Thomas anymore.
John 12:10 - So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well,
We don't know how much time passed between Lazarus' death in ch 11 and 12:10, but it is clear that he was STILL AROUND.
If Lazarus was in a glorified body, it would be obvious. And he was till around, so the gaffe is all on you. Kinda like the egg all over your face.
Who said it was typical? Not me.
Of course it's not typical. But it is also NOT a GLORIFIED RESURRECTION.
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
But you'll just be wasting your time, since the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
And none had glorified bodies.
And none had glotified bodies.
Why would it matter what you "doubt"? So what? What does the Bible say? Nothing about their being in glorified bodies, or going up to heaven.
In fact, your "doubt" is laid to rest by the account of Lazarus anyway. So you don't have to be a doubting Thomas anymore.
John 12:10 - So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well,
We don't know how much time passed between Lazarus' death in ch 11 and 12:10, but it is clear that he was STILL AROUND.
Where's the gaffe, o doubting Thomas?Matt 26:32
But after I am risen again (g1453), I will go before you to Galilee.
If message board gaffes were dollars, you would be a millionaire by now.....
If Lazarus was in a glorified body, it would be obvious. And he was till around, so the gaffe is all on you. Kinda like the egg all over your face.
FreeGrace2 said:
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
Matt 17:5 - While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
You are quite desperate, it seems. Why do you presume these clouds are the SAME CLOUDS that hid Jesus? There is no reason to.
What was going on in Matt 17 anyway? The transfiguration, where Jesus gave Peter, James and John a preview look at a glorified body.
Neither verse is about the ascension.
You will need actual biblical evidence, which you don't have.
But since you think so, prove that "in the clouds" IS the Shekinah glory. In fact prove that when Jesus ascended in Acts 1, that cloud was the Shekinah glory.
the Shekinah Glory IS IS IS the Lord Jesus Himself in pre-incarnate form.
Jesus was hid from the 11 by real physical clouds. Just as the 2W will be.
Sure, throw out citations without quotes. What laziness.
Matt 17:5 - While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
Luke 9:35 - A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
You are quite desperate, it seems. Why do you presume these clouds are the SAME CLOUDS that hid Jesus? There is no reason to.
What was going on in Matt 17 anyway? The transfiguration, where Jesus gave Peter, James and John a preview look at a glorified body.
Neither verse is about the ascension.
Right. So what? Prove the connection between these verses and the ascension and the 2 W. You will need much more than luck.Oh........by the way this was in conjunction with a glorification event. Just thought I would mention that......
You will need actual biblical evidence, which you don't have.
Hardly. Do pre-tribbers think that a 7 year tribulation will be EXACTLY to the hour? Of course not.
The words "day and hour" indicates a very specific time that Jesus will return. It will obviously not be to the minute or hour after 7 years.
Also, do the pre-tribbers notice that the first 4 seal judgments, aka "the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse" don't have specific start points. So it is impossible to determine WHEN the first one began. Or any of them. Not even the 5th seal can be timed.
It isn't until the 6th seal that we have a clear start point. Any earthquake has a definite start point.
btw, are the pre-tribbers aware that not even the humanity of Jesus knows the day or hour?
FreeGrace2 said:
Well, think about this, Mr pernickity. In the FINAL resurrection, ALL of them are going to the GWT judgment, and THEN into the LOF. So, it's not real hard to figure out.
I do agree that v.15 suggests believers will be there, but I don't see how. There is no mention in Scripture of any person being saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus. And, at the end, when Satan is released from prison, he deceives the whole world again. So God wipes out all the mortals on earth by fire. What happens next is the GWT. And all unbelievers will be resurrected in mortal bodies to appear before the GWT for their judgment.
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
The Bible tells us plainly that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. Dan 12:2, Acts 24:15. We know that "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.
So Rev 20:5 shows that the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years after the FIRST resurrection, which will be for believers only.
QUOTE][When do those people get their BEMA Judgment?[/QUOTE]
The Bible doesn't say when, nor when the marriage supper will be either. However, since when King Jesus comes back at the end of the Tribulation, and glorifes all believers, it seems most logical to me that the Bema will occur at the beginning of His 1,000 year reign. And also the marriage supper.
Well, think about this, Mr pernickity. In the FINAL resurrection, ALL of them are going to the GWT judgment, and THEN into the LOF. So, it's not real hard to figure out.
I'd love to hear your take on it.
We know that the Bema is for believers only. And the GWT judgment is where all unbelievers will be evaluated for how "tolerable" it will be for them in the LOF. Jesus taught that it will be more tolerable/bearable for the residents of S & G than current cities in Jesus's day who saw the miracles and refused to believe in Him.
I do agree that v.15 suggests believers will be there, but I don't see how. There is no mention in Scripture of any person being saved during the Millennial reign of Jesus. And, at the end, when Satan is released from prison, he deceives the whole world again. So God wipes out all the mortals on earth by fire. What happens next is the GWT. And all unbelievers will be resurrected in mortal bodies to appear before the GWT for their judgment.
The problem is Rev 20-
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
The Bible tells us plainly that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved. Dan 12:2, Acts 24:15. We know that "those who belong to Him" will all be resurrected at the same time, which is "when He comes", per 1 Cor 15:23.
So Rev 20:5 shows that the resurrection of the unsaved will be 1,000 years after the FIRST resurrection, which will be for believers only.
See above.
QUOTE][When do those people get their BEMA Judgment?[/QUOTE]
The Bible doesn't say when, nor when the marriage supper will be either. However, since when King Jesus comes back at the end of the Tribulation, and glorifes all believers, it seems most logical to me that the Bema will occur at the beginning of His 1,000 year reign. And also the marriage supper.
The bible is clear that the resurrection of the saved is 1,000 years before the resurrection of the unsaved. Rev 20:5.
I take my cue from the resurrections. The judgments follow resurrection. It wouldn't make sense for either the Bema or GWT to occur before resurrection.
And "pre-trib" is irrational. No Scripture to back any of it up.
And claiming there is evidence is irrational.
presidente said:
I wonder why that is?
Why? Are you embarrassed by what you consider evidence?
I wonder why that is?
You keep claiming to have all the answers, but you've only been keeping all of them to yourself.
Why? Are you embarrassed by what you consider evidence?
Yes, "Biblical clouds" are quite confusing to post-tribbers. I understand, and you have my sympathies bro.
this thread has become confusing so I apologise if I have mistaken your views. At the coming of the Lord to gather His church we will be changed, in a twinkling of an eye. John says we do not know what He will look like but we shall be like Him.
Paul draws the analogy of the seed, how it looks when it is planted and how it looks when it flowers. So we shall be glorified at the first resurrection.
I'm not the confused one here. You are. You are seeing things that aren't there. And you still haven't proved that the clouds that hid Jesus were super duper clouds.
And I pointed out that the Shekinah glory is Jesus Christ Himself. So there's that.
You need to give up. You have no answers. And you know it.
Yes, it is hard to follow everyone's posts, and keep them straight.
I believe that most of 'His church" will be coming with Him to receive their glorified resurrection body, but yes, those who are still alive and remain will be changed into their glorified body.
Amen to that!
I wrote, "But you don't share it yourself. I wonder why that is?"
So I will keep on wondering if the reason you don't answer specific questions or address specific is because you don't have a clue, but you want to keep putting up a front like you have everything figured out.
And you will go on knowing for sure whether you are just putting up a front.
That is what I am saying to you.
Yep - and most don't spend 99% of their time and energy trying to make themselves "look good" and everyone else "something less"...
Have you read/seen this? :
Ephesians 5:
1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. 3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Of course, the meaning of this word does not apply to this issue 100% - but, nonetheless, I thought I would give you something to look up...
Nothing wrong with some good honest innocent picking-and-teasing.
Just let it be for edification and not turn into ill will, insult, or offence.
Everyone should "have thick-enough skin"; albeit, there is no reason to make "deep cuts" that injure - "friendly jabs" ('pokes') are 'received' much better...
agree = good healthy friendly banter