Poll of polls on the longest running debate:

[PennEd]

I have been here almost 10 yrs. And by far and away the most often brought up, and fiercely debated (see the untold thousands of posts on NOT BY WORKS thread or any "OSAS" thread), subject has in one form or another been whether or not a truly born again child of God can lose their Salvation.

This is also the greatest issue that I have changed my position on in my whole Christian life. So I definitely believe that even hardened positions can be changed.

I'd be interested see exactly where members stand on this. Obviously many of us have made our thoughts known, but some haven't, and I hope I've made the choices as clear as possible. It seems to me there may be many reasons why someone would believe they can lose their Salvation, but only ONE reason why some, like myself, believe you can't. Trust that Jesus is the One who holds and maintains it.

 

[Iacampo]

I believe we are eternally saved, but I think it is done before the manifestation in our lives.

The question made me think of this.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In [f]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [g]lavished on [h]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [i]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things [j]in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 [k]In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that [l]we who were the first to hope in the [m]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [n]Him, [o]you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [p]believed, you were sealed in [q]Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and [r]your love for all the [s]saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the [t]knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart [u]may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the [v]saints, 19 and what is the [w]boundless greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:3-23 (NASB).

 

[Grandpa]

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe we are eternally saved, but I think it is done before the manifestation in our lives.

The question made me think of this.

"3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before [d]Him. In love 5 [e]He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In [f]Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He [g]lavished on [h]us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He [i]made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things [j]in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 [k]In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that [l]we who were the first to hope in the [m]Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In [n]Him, [o]you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [p]believed, you were sealed in [q]Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and [r]your love for all the [s]saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the [t]knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart [u]may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the [v]saints, 19 and what is the [w]boundless greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and made Him head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all." Ephesians 1:3-23 (NASB).

The parable Jesus tells in Luke 15 agrees with you. It is a parable with 3 parts. First is the story of the Shepherd and the lost sheep. Most would attribute this as the work of Jesus in salvation. Second is the story of the lost coin. To be found the house is lit and swept. This correlates to the enlightenment and cleansing the Spirit does in salvation. Then lastly is the well known story of the prodigal which is the drawing and lavishing of grace of the Father.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Wow!!!!!!!!!!! Trying to vote your way into heaven. I must admit that's a novel approach. Popular opinion, rather than Jesus and His Gospel are your rule of thumb. All I can say is, "Good luck with that! You'll need it!" LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[TMS]

It is hard to choose an option.

We must stand before the judgement of God. If we are covered in the righteousness of Jesus we are saved.
While probation is open we can choose which path we can walk.
Today is the day of salvation.

 

[ResidentAlien]

has in one form or another been whether or not a truly born again child of God can lose their Salvation.

This right here demonstrates you don't understand the first thing about this issue. No one "loses" their salvation; they forfeit it of their own free will. God never kicks anyone out of His family. Once you're born again, God doesn't turn around and make you "un-born again." When and if you ever get straight on this, then maybe their can be a fruitful discussion.

When the angels sinned and rebelled, they didn't stop being angels.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

As is typical of the OSAS crowd, you call on verses in isolation and ignore everything else. Roman 11:29 doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean. Don't forget the verses that immediately precede this passage:

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:19-21

You'd do a lot more for your cause if you'd quit being so dishonest.

 

[HeIsHere]

As is typical of the OSAS crowd, you call on verses in isolation and ignore everything else. Roman 11:29 doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean. Don't forget the verses that immediately precede this passage:

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:19-21

You'd do a lot more for your cause if you'd quit being so dishonest.

If the judge declares you innocent how does the accused undo the ruling?

 

[ResidentAlien]

If the judge declares you innocent how does the accused undo the ruling?

Simple: If the judge declares you innocent you're free. But that doesn't mean you're free to go out and do whatever you want from that point on. This the very core of the gospel; we're set free to do God's will. If we rebel and trample under foot His grace, a worse fate might be our lot.

 

[HeIsHere]

Simple: If the judge declares you innocent you're free. But that doesn't mean you're free to go out and do whatever you want from that point on. This the very core of the gospel; we're set free to do God's will. If we rebel and trample under foot His grace, a worse fate might be our lot.

You have sidestepped the question.

All charges past, present and future are paid for by an innocent party and the person is declared innocent.

There is no in-between one cannot be both declared innocent and guilty at the same time.

Your words are words of behaviour control/mangement not the Gospel of Good News, forgiveness, redemption, new life and grace.

 

[Iacampo]

Simple: If the judge declares you innocent you're free. But that doesn't mean you're free to go out and do whatever you want from that point on. This the very core of the gospel; we're set free to do God's will. If we rebel and trample under foot His grace, a worse fate might be our lot.

I do not believe this is exactly correct. God isn't a righteousness and just judge that just forgives. He is just in His judgments and can therefore not just let lawbreakers go. His son Yeshua stepped in and took our every judgment for our sins upon Himself. Paid in full. It is finished. Predestined from the foundations of the world to be blameless before Him. Your post reminds me of this.

"10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each person must be careful how he builds on it. 11 For no one can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each one’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each one’s work. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet only so as through fire." 1 Corinthians 3:10-15 (NASB).

 

[Grandpa]

As is typical of the OSAS crowd, you call on verses in isolation and ignore everything else. Roman 11:29 doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean. Don't forget the verses that immediately precede this passage:

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:19-21

You'd do a lot more for your cause if you'd quit being so dishonest.

The scripture is not dishonest.

It says EXACTLY what it says.

Because of UNBELIEF they were broken off. Someone who has Eternal Security and knows what that means can't fall into unbelief. They would have to start believing the DISHONEST lies of the carnal minds that ATTEMPT to translate scripture to mean that Carnal Men are responsible for Salvation and not God Himself.

You may get the seedlings that have fallen on the rocky ground to believe that rubbish, but the grown seeds with the deep roots in the good ground KNOW BETTER.

 

[HeIsHere]

As is typical of the OSAS crowd, you call on verses in isolation and ignore everything else. Roman 11:29 doesn't mean what you're trying to make it mean. Don't forget the verses that immediately precede this passage:

"You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.' Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either." Romans 11:19-21

You'd do a lot more for your cause if you'd quit being so dishonest.

Out of context.

Paul is speaking about Israel and God dealing with them and their unbelief as a nation who rejected their sent Messiah.

 

[Iacampo]

I wish I could message privately. In general. There keeps being things I would want to address that I do not believe would be profitable in a public post.

 

[Grandpa]

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


Hebrews 8:35-39
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Iacampo]

Give them time to consider and respond.

 

[Cameron143]

I wish I could message privately. In general. There keeps being things I would want to address that I do not believe would be profitable in a public post.

Sometimes the wisest course is silence.

 

[kaylagrl]

I have been here almost 10 yrs. And by far and away the most often brought up, and fiercely debated (see the untold thousands of posts on NOT BY WORKS thread or any "OSAS" thread), subject has in one form or another been whether or not a truly born again child of God can lose their Salvation.

First, I think the world of you brother, we agree on a lot. But I think the matter swings on this part of your comment... "whether or not a truly born again child of God can lose their Salvation." Where I would say a person has returned to sin, turned away from the truth, you'd say they were never really saved in the first place." I believe you are eternally saved as long as you remain saved. We had a poster in another recent thread here say you could commit murder and if you had at some point in your life confessed you're a Christian you're going to heaven. That is a scary comment. I don't think you'd agree with that. I think you'd say that person was never a sincere Christian in the first place.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

I belive we are eternally secure but I think OSAS has become quite an agressive movement and is giving cover to that
"hypergrace" or licence to sin belief.