"The rich man And Lazarus..."
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If I may butt in here. When John wrote that, NO dead believer was in heaven. All were in Hades, in Paradise, where Abraham was.
That's why Jesus' account of 2 dead guys is so enlightening. In John's gospel, he was writing the time IN the OT, before Jesus went to the cross. So he was correct.
What do you do with what Paul wrote, which was after the resurrection and ascension?
2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
It is clear from his words that life on earth is being absent from the Lord, and life with the Lord is being "absent from the body", or physical death.
iow, at death, we are absent from the body "and at home with the Lord".
Since Jesus took all the saved OT saints from Paradise up to heaven, the compartment Paradise is now empty. That means all the unsaved who are filling torments can see the empty compartment and ask questions. Those who were there when Jesus came and took all the saved souls to heaven will be able to tell them.
David was also in Paradise, because Jesus had not been ascended yet. David is now in heaven.
That's why Jesus' account of 2 dead guys is so enlightening. In John's gospel, he was writing the time IN the OT, before Jesus went to the cross. So he was correct.
What do you do with what Paul wrote, which was after the resurrection and ascension?
2 Cor 5-
6 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
It is clear from his words that life on earth is being absent from the Lord, and life with the Lord is being "absent from the body", or physical death.
iow, at death, we are absent from the body "and at home with the Lord".
Since Jesus took all the saved OT saints from Paradise up to heaven, the compartment Paradise is now empty. That means all the unsaved who are filling torments can see the empty compartment and ask questions. Those who were there when Jesus came and took all the saved souls to heaven will be able to tell them.
David was also in Paradise, because Jesus had not been ascended yet. David is now in heaven.
OK, now read the verse slowly and let it sink in.
It says that God is ABLE TO kill both soul and body. And why not? He created both.
But, what you are missing, due to you bias, is that the verse DOESN'T say that He WILL do that. You only assume or presume that from His ability.
Now, please find any verse that SAYS that God WILL kill both soul and body. That will prove your claim.
I ask as a Berean. Does the Bible SAY what you SAY? So far, I haven't seen any verse that says what you say.
It says that God is ABLE TO kill both soul and body. And why not? He created both.
But, what you are missing, due to you bias, is that the verse DOESN'T say that He WILL do that. You only assume or presume that from His ability.
Now, please find any verse that SAYS that God WILL kill both soul and body. That will prove your claim.
I ask as a Berean. Does the Bible SAY what you SAY? So far, I haven't seen any verse that says what you say.
FreeGrace2 said:
When the majority is WRONG, there is EVERY reason to resist. Obviously.
Your opinion, again.
You are full of you.
Thank you for your opinion. Again.
When you have a verse that SAYS what you SAY, you'll have a point. But not until then.
You have been shown that "die" and "death" in the OT always refers to capital punishment of sinners (criminals). Learn that.
And YES God is able to kill both soul and body. Now find me a verse that says He WILL.
You seem to persist in the idea that being able to means will. It doesn't. Not ever.
I am able to kill all sorts of people. But I have never killed anyone. Nor do I expect to. Unless self defense is involved.
I just disproved your presumption.
When the majority is WRONG, there is EVERY reason to resist. Obviously.
Your opinion, again.
You are full of you.
Thank you for your opinion. Again.
When you have a verse that SAYS what you SAY, you'll have a point. But not until then.
You have been shown that "die" and "death" in the OT always refers to capital punishment of sinners (criminals). Learn that.
And YES God is able to kill both soul and body. Now find me a verse that says He WILL.
You seem to persist in the idea that being able to means will. It doesn't. Not ever.
I am able to kill all sorts of people. But I have never killed anyone. Nor do I expect to. Unless self defense is involved.
I just disproved your presumption.
Thanks for asking. Yes, I sure did.
That is what the Bible says. So I will say it a well.
Please take my advice and read it again, but S L O W L Y this time.
You have tried to CHANGE the Word of God by your bias.
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Where do you see the words "will be" anywhere in that verse?
You DON'T because they aren't there. All you will see if your eyes are open are the words "who CAN desstroy both soul and body in hell".
btw, "hell" isn't the LOF. The Greek for "hell" is Hades, and is where Jesus went to "preach to the spirits in prison after His death on the cross.
Now that we've crossed that hurdle, what verse SAYS that God WILL destroy souls?
That is what the Bible says. So I will say it a well.
Please take my advice and read it again, but S L O W L Y this time.
You have tried to CHANGE the Word of God by your bias.
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
Where do you see the words "will be" anywhere in that verse?
You DON'T because they aren't there. All you will see if your eyes are open are the words "who CAN desstroy both soul and body in hell".
btw, "hell" isn't the LOF. The Greek for "hell" is Hades, and is where Jesus went to "preach to the spirits in prison after His death on the cross.
Now that we've crossed that hurdle, what verse SAYS that God WILL destroy souls?
A great study to embark on is that of the differences of the Body, Soul, & Spirit.
Here's a good start:
1 Corinthians 5:5
New King James Version
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice Paul doesn't say his soul may be saved.
Some commentators believe the Body houses the soul, and the soul houses the spirit.
So annihilationism still doesn't work.
Here's a good start:
1 Corinthians 5:5
New King James Version
5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
Notice Paul doesn't say his soul may be saved.
Some commentators believe the Body houses the soul, and the soul houses the spirit.
So annihilationism still doesn't work.
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Let's say Christ rose from the dead in AD30 on First Fruits, 50 days later on Pentecost would be Acts 2. That means when Peter was speaking the words we see recorded in Acts 2, all the dead up until the time in which Peter spoke (including David) didn't ascend to heaven and were in their grave.
You're telling me from the time in which Peter spoke in AD 30 on Pentecost until now something magically changed?
You're telling me from the time in which Peter spoke in AD 30 on Pentecost until now something magically changed?
Acts 2 when Peter is speaking is on the day of Pentecost which is 50 days AFTER Christ ascended, are you kidding me?
Did you seriously just blindly/knee jerk reaction with response to what I said injecting your own thoughts to try and "do away" with a verse that contradicts your theology without even looking at scripture. WOW.
Act 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Acts 2
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
Did you seriously just blindly/knee jerk reaction with response to what I said injecting your own thoughts to try and "do away" with a verse that contradicts your theology without even looking at scripture. WOW.
Act 1:9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
Act 1:11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."
Acts 2
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 “For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself:
Verse 4 of Revelation says nothing about bodies......What are the thousand years mentioned in verse 4 of Revelation?
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
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• Matt 25:41 . .Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
That's likely a reference to Rev 20:10 where it says:
" And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night forever and ever."
I'm not all that well-informed about the future, but I'm pretty sure that both
the beast and the false prophet are human beings. Well; if the Greek word
apollumi (Matt 10:28) speaks of nothing less than obliteration, then how it
is that those two guys are existing in the lake when the Devil arrives?
The thing is: apollumi is somewhat ambiguous. It doesn't always mean
obliteration, for example Matt 2:13 which says:
"Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."
And/or Matt 5:29 which says:
"It is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that
your whole body should be cast into Hell."
And/or Matt 8:25 which says:
"Lord, save us: we perish."
And/or etc, etc, etc. The list just goes on and on and on where apollumi
means more than obliteration, i.e. something always remains to reckon with,
for example Heb 2:14 which says:
"Through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,
the Devil."
Rev 20:10 assures me that the Devil's destruction doesn't obliterate him; he
will be kept in existence to undergo perpetual suffering; and I think it's
pretty safe to assume that those on the King's left per Matt 25:41 will be
there too.
One of my favorite lines from the movie "Titanic" is when Mr. Ismay protests
that this ship cannot sink; and Mr. Andrews responds: She's made of iron,
sir! I assure you, she can... and she will. It is a mathematical certainty.
There are folks at large all across the internet, and around the globe,
sincerely believing that Hell isn't a place of perpetual conscious suffering.
They, like Mr. Ismay, will be utterly shocked and bewildered beyond
comprehension to discover it's exactly that.
_
• Matt 25:41 . .Then he will say to those on his left: Depart from me, you
who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.
That's likely a reference to Rev 20:10 where it says:
" And the Devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and
brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be
tormented day and night forever and ever."
I'm not all that well-informed about the future, but I'm pretty sure that both
the beast and the false prophet are human beings. Well; if the Greek word
apollumi (Matt 10:28) speaks of nothing less than obliteration, then how it
is that those two guys are existing in the lake when the Devil arrives?
The thing is: apollumi is somewhat ambiguous. It doesn't always mean
obliteration, for example Matt 2:13 which says:
"Herod will seek the young child to destroy him."
And/or Matt 5:29 which says:
"It is profitable for you that one of your members should perish, and not that
your whole body should be cast into Hell."
And/or Matt 8:25 which says:
"Lord, save us: we perish."
And/or etc, etc, etc. The list just goes on and on and on where apollumi
means more than obliteration, i.e. something always remains to reckon with,
for example Heb 2:14 which says:
"Through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is,
the Devil."
Rev 20:10 assures me that the Devil's destruction doesn't obliterate him; he
will be kept in existence to undergo perpetual suffering; and I think it's
pretty safe to assume that those on the King's left per Matt 25:41 will be
there too.
One of my favorite lines from the movie "Titanic" is when Mr. Ismay protests
that this ship cannot sink; and Mr. Andrews responds: She's made of iron,
sir! I assure you, she can... and she will. It is a mathematical certainty.
There are folks at large all across the internet, and around the globe,
sincerely believing that Hell isn't a place of perpetual conscious suffering.
They, like Mr. Ismay, will be utterly shocked and bewildered beyond
comprehension to discover it's exactly that.
_
Except your narrative doesn’t exist in the Old Testament or New Testament.
The “forever” torment in Revelation 20:10 isn’t literal. Many times in the Bible forever isn’t literally forever. There’s probably at least a dozen or so such cases.
If Revelation 20:10 is literal then it only applies to three persons, not all of the unsaved. There’s no way to apply what specifically applies to three persons to everyone. If you wish to do so then you must admit that’s your opinion and the inference you’re seeking to draw from it.
The word of God should accurately inform people what will happen to them and it does, but not the way you seem to think it does.
John 3:16 says those who believe have eternal life. Those who don’t perish. It’s very plain.
The “forever” torment in Revelation 20:10 isn’t literal. Many times in the Bible forever isn’t literally forever. There’s probably at least a dozen or so such cases.
If Revelation 20:10 is literal then it only applies to three persons, not all of the unsaved. There’s no way to apply what specifically applies to three persons to everyone. If you wish to do so then you must admit that’s your opinion and the inference you’re seeking to draw from it.
The word of God should accurately inform people what will happen to them and it does, but not the way you seem to think it does.
John 3:16 says those who believe have eternal life. Those who don’t perish. It’s very plain.
So what is the deal with Acts 2? Please be more specific.
How does this contradict anything I said?
OK, confused one, let's do this slowly.
In v.29 Peter was referring to the BODY of David, which WAS dead and WAS buried. In a tomb. Got it. There is nothing about his soul.
And speaking of David, please explain what he said about his 7 day old son:
2 Sam 12:23 - But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
This is very clear. David knew his son was in Paradise and was not coming back to earth to David. But David would "go to him".
So much for the SDA theory of soul sleep.
How does this contradict anything I said?
OK, confused one, let's do this slowly.
In v.29 Peter was referring to the BODY of David, which WAS dead and WAS buried. In a tomb. Got it. There is nothing about his soul.
And speaking of David, please explain what he said about his 7 day old son:
2 Sam 12:23 - But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me.”
This is very clear. David knew his son was in Paradise and was not coming back to earth to David. But David would "go to him".
So much for the SDA theory of soul sleep.
FreeGrace2 said:
Jesus will bring with Him all the dead saints from Adam forward at the 2nd Advent and resurrect their bodies, glorified bodies. Those who are alive and remain will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" and have glorified bodies too.
The 1,000 years is the Millennial Reign of King Jesus on earth, when He comes back at the Second Advent. At the end of the 1,000 year reign, Satan will be released from prison, deceive the world again and be defeated and thrown into the LOF. All unbelievers on earth at that time will be killed. Then, all unbelievers will be resurrected into their mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment, after which all of them will be cast into the LOF.
Apparently, then, you believe that bodily-less souls will reign with Christ??? Are you serious? The words "they lived and reigned" signifies a resurrection. And the Bible is clear that there will be only 1 resurrection for all the saved, and that resurrection will be at the Second Advent, which fits these first verses of Rev 20.
So OBVIOUSLY these beheaded souls were resurrected and will reign with Christ during the Millennial Reign.
OK, the "souls" were of those who lost their heads IN the Tribulation, and "came to life" and reigned with Christ. This is the resurrection of the saved, which will occur when Jesus comes back.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The rest of the dead" are the unbelievers who won't be resurrected until the GWT judgment, which is 1,000 years of Jesus' reign on this earth ends at the battle of Gog and Magog. The sentence "this is the FIRST resurrection" refers to the beheaded martyrs of the tribulation who are resurrected and will reign with Christ.
1 Cor 15:23 teaches clearly that all saved people will be given resurrection bodies "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.
Jesus will bring with Him all the dead saints from Adam forward at the 2nd Advent and resurrect their bodies, glorified bodies. Those who are alive and remain will be "changed in the twinkling of the eye" and have glorified bodies too.
The 1,000 years is the Millennial Reign of King Jesus on earth, when He comes back at the Second Advent. At the end of the 1,000 year reign, Satan will be released from prison, deceive the world again and be defeated and thrown into the LOF. All unbelievers on earth at that time will be killed. Then, all unbelievers will be resurrected into their mortal bodies to attend the GWT judgment, after which all of them will be cast into the LOF.
Apparently, then, you believe that bodily-less souls will reign with Christ??? Are you serious? The words "they lived and reigned" signifies a resurrection. And the Bible is clear that there will be only 1 resurrection for all the saved, and that resurrection will be at the Second Advent, which fits these first verses of Rev 20.
So OBVIOUSLY these beheaded souls were resurrected and will reign with Christ during the Millennial Reign.
OK, the "souls" were of those who lost their heads IN the Tribulation, and "came to life" and reigned with Christ. This is the resurrection of the saved, which will occur when Jesus comes back.
1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
The rest of the dead" are the unbelievers who won't be resurrected until the GWT judgment, which is 1,000 years of Jesus' reign on this earth ends at the battle of Gog and Magog. The sentence "this is the FIRST resurrection" refers to the beheaded martyrs of the tribulation who are resurrected and will reign with Christ.
1 Cor 15:23 teaches clearly that all saved people will be given resurrection bodies "when He comes" which is the Second Advent.