"The rich man And Lazarus..."
- Thread starter GRACE_ambassador
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Just to be clear those are your words, not mine.
Jesus often quoted unnamed people in His parables. Saying an unnamed person said something they didn’t really say is bearing false witness even if they are just using a scenario as a teaching tool, according to you.
Don’t forget, all Jesus said He didn’t say on His own authority, but rather said what the Father told Him to say.
Jesus often quoted unnamed people in His parables. Saying an unnamed person said something they didn’t really say is bearing false witness even if they are just using a scenario as a teaching tool, according to you.
Don’t forget, all Jesus said He didn’t say on His own authority, but rather said what the Father told Him to say.
-
1
- Show all
.
Abraham's response was specifically directed to the man's five brothers;
only his five brothers: none else.
No doubt the man's five brothers would've believed him, but the man didn't
ask for himself to go; and aren't you curious why.
Well, countless numbers of people have been transferring to the wrong side
of the netherworld ever since the days of Cain; prior to Noah's flood. No
doubt the man discovered from them that no one yet had managed to
escape back to the world.
_
Abraham's response was specifically directed to the man's five brothers;
only his five brothers: none else.
No doubt the man's five brothers would've believed him, but the man didn't
ask for himself to go; and aren't you curious why.
Well, countless numbers of people have been transferring to the wrong side
of the netherworld ever since the days of Cain; prior to Noah's flood. No
doubt the man discovered from them that no one yet had managed to
escape back to the world.
_
.
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.
Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.
For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.
I have yet to read even one of Jesus' parables that couldn't possibly be a
real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards,
weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, lost coins, sons
leaving home, wine skins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread,
barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.
Now; if Christ had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would
have good reason to believe that at least that particular parable was
fantasy; but not one of them are so far removed from the normal round of
human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.
No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Christ's parables. At best; they
qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of
character for Christ-- the Logos: the voice of God
We must conclude then that there really is an afterlife place of conscious
suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones
are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar
to the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones
while utterly helpless to do anything about it.
You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you. Here's a sort of cute story I heard
once. I don't know if it's from real life, but it sure is pertinent.
A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to
sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he
heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy
coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: The
snow; I walked in your footsteps.
Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld
knowing they brought up their children to follow an ideology whose pot at
the end of the rainbow is filled with fire instead of gold. How do people bear
up under something like that on their conscience?
_
Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.
Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.
For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.
I have yet to read even one of Jesus' parables that couldn't possibly be a
real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards,
weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, lost coins, sons
leaving home, wine skins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread,
barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.
Now; if Christ had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would
have good reason to believe that at least that particular parable was
fantasy; but not one of them are so far removed from the normal round of
human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.
No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Christ's parables. At best; they
qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of
character for Christ-- the Logos: the voice of God
We must conclude then that there really is an afterlife place of conscious
suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones
are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar
to the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones
while utterly helpless to do anything about it.
You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you. Here's a sort of cute story I heard
once. I don't know if it's from real life, but it sure is pertinent.
A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to
sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he
heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy
coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: The
snow; I walked in your footsteps.
Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld
knowing they brought up their children to follow an ideology whose pot at
the end of the rainbow is filled with fire instead of gold. How do people bear
up under something like that on their conscience?
_
-
1
- Show all
I'm not disagreeing with the OP here; I believe Lazarus in Luke 16 was a real person.
But I'd like to point out that Hebrews 9:27 is not a universal rule, but rather the norm.
Besides Jesus, every person who was raised from the dead died twice. And those who will be raptured will never die.
It says, "unto men", not "unto all men".
I just want to make sure that people don't use this verse to support a faulty doctrine. I'm not saying that's what you're doing...it's more for others who may use it later.
But I'd like to point out that Hebrews 9:27 is not a universal rule, but rather the norm.
Besides Jesus, every person who was raised from the dead died twice. And those who will be raptured will never die.
It says, "unto men", not "unto all men".
I just want to make sure that people don't use this verse to support a faulty doctrine. I'm not saying that's what you're doing...it's more for others who may use it later.
You are just vainly trying to split the account up, with a very phony charge.
Since TWO men WERE named, including a very famous man, Abraham, it doesn't matter that the rich man wasn't named.
You can't have a parable in the middle of a historical account. Everyone else knows that.
Why don't you just ask Jesus. You're really struggling in order to defend your "parable" claim.
btw, why is it so important to you that the account is simply a parable anyway? Care to share?
I think you are hiding something, or are struggling to hold onto some doctrine for it to be a parable.
Since TWO men WERE named, including a very famous man, Abraham, it doesn't matter that the rich man wasn't named.
You can't have a parable in the middle of a historical account. Everyone else knows that.
Why don't you just ask Jesus. You're really struggling in order to defend your "parable" claim.
btw, why is it so important to you that the account is simply a parable anyway? Care to share?
I think you are hiding something, or are struggling to hold onto some doctrine for it to be a parable.
-
1
- Show all
John146 said:
Btw, there was just a little over 500 who actually saw the resurrected Jesus before he ascended. That's the discussion. Even if the rich man's family saw a saint resurrected, they still wouldn't believe.
This shows that you really don't KNOW anything about the account. The rich man didn't ask to go back, as you opine. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to his 5 brothers. Why would the rich man think his brothers would believe a poor man, who they probably didn't even know anyway.
The rich man DIDN'T ask to go back. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back. Read the account, for heaven's sake.
So, Jesus was just putting words in the mouth of Abraham then? How is that sane?
Btw, there was just a little over 500 who actually saw the resurrected Jesus before he ascended. That's the discussion. Even if the rich man's family saw a saint resurrected, they still wouldn't believe.
This shows that you really don't KNOW anything about the account. The rich man didn't ask to go back, as you opine. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to his 5 brothers. Why would the rich man think his brothers would believe a poor man, who they probably didn't even know anyway.
The rich man DIDN'T ask to go back. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back. Read the account, for heaven's sake.
So, Jesus was just putting words in the mouth of Abraham then? How is that sane?
This is confused on several levels.
First, Abraham didn't contradict anything. But since you believe he did, and Jesus was telling the story, why would Jesus bother to quote anyone who contradicted His gospel in the first place? How is THAT sane?
Second, Lots of people during Jesus' ministry and before were "raised from the dead". How many received glorified bodies, bodies that would NEVER die? None. Or the Bible would have made that clear. Remember the other Lazarus? The Jews wanted to KILL HIM after Jesus raised him from the dead.
There's your other confusion. There is NOTHING in Jesus' account that shows results for particular lifestyles. In fact, what would have been the point?
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Where do you see anything about cause and effect here? Therre isn't any. Abraham simply noted the unbeliever had good things in life while the believer had bad things in life. That's all he noted.
You're making up stuff on the fly.
Nor did Abraham give "reasons" WHY they ended up where they did.
Open your eyes then. Of course you aren't seeing anything. You don't want to.
Read v.25 and explain the words that support your opinion about what Abe said.
First, Abraham didn't contradict anything. But since you believe he did, and Jesus was telling the story, why would Jesus bother to quote anyone who contradicted His gospel in the first place? How is THAT sane?
Second, Lots of people during Jesus' ministry and before were "raised from the dead". How many received glorified bodies, bodies that would NEVER die? None. Or the Bible would have made that clear. Remember the other Lazarus? The Jews wanted to KILL HIM after Jesus raised him from the dead.
There's your other confusion. There is NOTHING in Jesus' account that shows results for particular lifestyles. In fact, what would have been the point?
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
Where do you see anything about cause and effect here? Therre isn't any. Abraham simply noted the unbeliever had good things in life while the believer had bad things in life. That's all he noted.
You're making up stuff on the fly.
Nor did Abraham give "reasons" WHY they ended up where they did.
Open your eyes then. Of course you aren't seeing anything. You don't want to.
Read v.25 and explain the words that support your opinion about what Abe said.
-
1
- Show all
FreeGrace2 said:
No, it's an argument where the truth is defended against false teaching.
Your opinions are hilarious.
No, it's an argument where the truth is defended against false teaching.
Your opinions are hilarious.
.
In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried
by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't
specified.
One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie
occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone
marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie
phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering
awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.
I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but
if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for
him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures
surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one
unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering
around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life
without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him
down.
_
In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried
by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't
specified.
One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie
occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone
marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie
phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering
awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.
I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but
if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for
him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures
surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one
unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering
around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life
without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him
down.
_
Runningman said:
And your criteria seems to be subjective based on a private interpretation.
For example, was Judas saved? He betrayed Jesus then committed suicide. Why did they call him by name then?
He seems rather disoriented.
And your criteria seems to be subjective based on a private interpretation.
For example, was Judas saved? He betrayed Jesus then committed suicide. Why did they call him by name then?
He seems rather disoriented.
-
1
- Show all