Eph 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins (the unregenerate person) hath he quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved).
The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?
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Eph 2:5 - Even when we were dead in sins (the unregenerate person) hath he quickened us together with Christ (by grace are ye saved).
I have given you the factual truths with scripture. If you can not accept that and stick with your false interpretation of the scriptures, that is your personnel option, hopefully, some day, you will see the light.
I have never once doubted that the faithful in Christ Jesus did not believe. Where I differ with you is that you say that the unregenerate person can believe in the things of the Spirit, when 1 Cor 2:14, plainly refutes that.
Yes I have many times. You just disregard them, by claiming that the scriptures that I give you does not equate with your false beliefs.
None of the unregenerate people will seek God until they have been quickened to the new spiritual life. Many scriptures portray this fact, but you choose to reject them in order to falsely give the unregenerate person the knowledge of the things of the Spirit.
It bought all for whom He died with a Price !
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
No doubt these scriptures apply strictly to the believers in Christ, however, Just when were they bought with a Price ? Was it before or after they became believers ?
1 Cor 6:19-20
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.
No doubt these scriptures apply strictly to the believers in Christ, however, Just when were they bought with a Price ? Was it before or after they became believers ?
The Gospel isnt an offer, its the proclamation of a message, particularly the accomplishments of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Yes its a proclamation of good news to the world. but we still freely offer it.. Do you not
. The Gospel is universal therefore it is freely offered to all people, without distinction.
All I would say is be careful you don't run aground on the shipwreck of hyper Calvinism. Which closes down the freely proclaiming of the word.
FreeGrace2 said:
Got a surprise for you. Believers have a carnal mind. The word "carnal" simply means "fleshly", and refers to the sinful human nature, where all of our sins originat
Speaking of which, can you explain how a person becomes regenerated?
The verse does NOT tell us HOW a person is born again. It does tell us WHO does it.
So, think about it and find a verse that tell us HOW (not by whom) we are born again.
If you can't, I'll show you.
Got a surprise for you. Believers have a carnal mind. The word "carnal" simply means "fleshly", and refers to the sinful human nature, where all of our sins originat
Speaking of which, can you explain how a person becomes regenerated?
This excellent verse equates being regenerated (made alive, born again) with being saved. So we know they always go together. Cannot have one without the other.
The verse does NOT tell us HOW a person is born again. It does tell us WHO does it.
So, think about it and find a verse that tell us HOW (not by whom) we are born again.
If you can't, I'll show you.
FreeGrace2 said:
First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.
This doesn't mention anything about the purpose of election. What verse SAYS that God elects people to salvation? That is my question.
Seems everybody thinks election is to salvation, so where are the verses that SAY SO?
And you haven't shown any verse that tells us that the purpose of election is salvation. You believe it is, but you haven't found any verse that says so. Remember, I study the same way the Bereans did when Paul came to town. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said is true."
I love that. That verse has helped me out more in my understanding of theological claims than anything else.
I know my questions and requests for verses are frustrating. But if your belief is the truth, there WOULD be at least a verse saying what you believe.
I have already given you clear examples of election being to service, not salvation. So I have proven my claim.
If election is ALSO to salvation, then prove it. But so far, the only verses I have found that speak to the purpose of election shows election is to service.
First, you failed to even discuss the false doctrine of election by Calvinists. Show me any verse that clearly shows that election is to salvation. You can't. There aren't any.
This doesn't mention anything about the purpose of election. What verse SAYS that God elects people to salvation? That is my question.
Seems everybody thinks election is to salvation, so where are the verses that SAY SO?
There are many factual truths in Scirpture. In fact, ALL of Scripture is the factual truth. So you haven't moved the football yet.
And you haven't shown any verse that tells us that the purpose of election is salvation. You believe it is, but you haven't found any verse that says so. Remember, I study the same way the Bereans did when Paul came to town. They "searched the Scriptures daily to see if what Paul said is true."
I love that. That verse has helped me out more in my understanding of theological claims than anything else.
I know my questions and requests for verses are frustrating. But if your belief is the truth, there WOULD be at least a verse saying what you believe.
I have already given you clear examples of election being to service, not salvation. So I have proven my claim.
If election is ALSO to salvation, then prove it. But so far, the only verses I have found that speak to the purpose of election shows election is to service.
Typical defense mechanism. I do not accept any of the verses you have cited/quoted because they DO NOT show election being to salvation. And I have already proven with verses that SAY that election is to service, so your snarky claim that I have a false interpretation of Scripture is just bogus.
OK, show me the light then. That's what I've been asked for. You haven't done that.
FreeGrace2 said:
You are still missing the point. The "us" in Eph 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". So the "us" in v.4 means believers.
I DID say that the gospel message is a TRUST issue, not a spiritual issue, which you think it is.
Everyone is familiar with the phrase "believe me when I say....". One could just as well use the phrase "TRUST me when I say....".
That proves that the gospel is a trust issue, something that everyone can identify with. Even you.
TRUST me on that. Or BELIEVE what I say. Either way.
If you don't believe that salvation is a trust issue, I would say you don't understand what salvation even is. Or how to obtain it.
You are still missing the point. The "us" in Eph 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". So the "us" in v.4 means believers.
I NEVER said that. Apparently you do not read very carefully.
I DID say that the gospel message is a TRUST issue, not a spiritual issue, which you think it is.
Everyone is familiar with the phrase "believe me when I say....". One could just as well use the phrase "TRUST me when I say....".
That proves that the gospel is a trust issue, something that everyone can identify with. Even you.
That verse isn't even about the gospel.
TRUST me on that. Or BELIEVE what I say. Either way.
If you don't believe that salvation is a trust issue, I would say you don't understand what salvation even is. Or how to obtain it.
FreeGrace2 said:
Again, what verse plainly shows that election is to salvation? You still haven't given any verse that says election is to salvation.
I've used the Berean study method. I have no idea what method you are using but you STILL don't have any verses that SAY that election is to salvation.
So, who has the "false belief" here?
Again, what verse plainly shows that election is to salvation? You still haven't given any verse that says election is to salvation.
This is really amazing. I have given you verses that PLAINLY say that election is to service. And you continue to claim that I have a "false belief", even though I have verses that say exactly what I believe.
I've used the Berean study method. I have no idea what method you are using but you STILL don't have any verses that SAY that election is to salvation.
So, who has the "false belief" here?
FreeGrace2 said:
Here are some verses that prove what I say; that election is to service.
You are still missing the point. The "us" in Eph 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". So the "us" in v.4 means believers.
So, God chooses BELIEVERS to service. That's the "in the first place". There is no verse that says God chooses to save people in order to choose them to service. And that makes no sense anyway.
Again, what verse plainly shows that election is to salvation? You still haven't given any verse that says election is to salvation.
I understand that most believers think it is, but that is only because of incorrect teaching over the centuries.
As to your comment about "no one seeking Him", Paul quoted a verse from the OT where the subject was about atheists. It is atheists that don't seek God. Why? Because they don't believe He exists.
No one seeks what they don't think exists. That wouldn't make sense.
And you ignored my explanation of the verse about 'none seek Him". Paul was quoting from Psa 14:1-3 and the subject is "fools who say there is no God". Hm. That would be atheists. So, why would an atheist, who claims there is no God, seek Him?
Paul wasn't referring to the whole human race, as it seems you opine.
The gospel is NOT a spiritual issue, no matter how often you claim otherwise.
Here are some verses that prove what I say; that election is to service.
You are still missing the point. The "us" in Eph 1:4 is defined in 1:19 as "us who believe". So the "us" in v.4 means believers.
So, God chooses BELIEVERS to service. That's the "in the first place". There is no verse that says God chooses to save people in order to choose them to service. And that makes no sense anyway.
Again, what verse plainly shows that election is to salvation? You still haven't given any verse that says election is to salvation.
I understand that most believers think it is, but that is only because of incorrect teaching over the centuries.
As to your comment about "no one seeking Him", Paul quoted a verse from the OT where the subject was about atheists. It is atheists that don't seek God. Why? Because they don't believe He exists.
No one seeks what they don't think exists. That wouldn't make sense.
You are relying on a reformed talking point. How about using the Bible for a change to prove your claims?
And you ignored my explanation of the verse about 'none seek Him". Paul was quoting from Psa 14:1-3 and the subject is "fools who say there is no God". Hm. That would be atheists. So, why would an atheist, who claims there is no God, seek Him?
Paul wasn't referring to the whole human race, as it seems you opine.
Again, your claims are quite false. My focus is on the gospel message and salvation. It is simply a TRUST issue, but you are still kicking against the goads.
The gospel is NOT a spiritual issue, no matter how often you claim otherwise.
Uh, the "message" IS an offer. An offer of salvation. Titus 2:11 says so plainly.
Read your Bible.
I know that you understand what "quickened" means. That is HOW A PERSON IS BORN AGAIN.
The word "BECOME" you have inserted in your question, depicts that the person has something to do with getting born again. No where in the scriptures is this affirmed. Eph 2:1-5 disputes that idea. It is by God's sovereign grace, without the help of mankind.
Jesus died so that anyone who believes upon Him might be saved (the Gospel, including all your verses.)
FreeGrace2 said:
OK, re-phrasing the question: How does a person become born again?
The word simply means a change. It doesn't reflect on anything by itself.
The amount of dodging you are doing is remarkable. What are you trying to hide? The fact that you can't explain HOW someone gets or becomes born again???
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
When you realize that you can't answer my question, just let me know and I will be glad to inform you. The Bible is clear about it.
OK, re-phrasing the question: How does a person become born again?
Not at all. I have no idea where you get your assumptions from. But it isn't true.
The word simply means a change. It doesn't reflect on anything by itself.
The amount of dodging you are doing is remarkable. What are you trying to hide? The fact that you can't explain HOW someone gets or becomes born again???
I agree. We do not give birth to ourselves. John 1:12 makes that real clear.
But it seems you really do NOT know how a person is made alive. How is that for another re-phrasing?
So, are you saying that God just zaps some people apart from their own awareness? Like the false doctrine of unconditional election to salvation?
When you realize that you can't answer my question, just let me know and I will be glad to inform you. The Bible is clear about it.
Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of eternal salvation. The unregenerate person cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14). Believing in spiritual things only comes after a person has been quickened by God to a new spiritual life (Eph 2:1-5).
Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not offered to mankind for mankind's acceptance, but was offered to God, for God's acceptance.
Jesus only died for those that his Father gave to him, not all of mankind (John 6:39).
Saved, according to Greek interpretation means "delivered". Believing in Jesus delivers a born again person from living an unfruitful life as he sojourns here on earth.