Is Calvinism the truth?

[phil36]

Fair point. God said to

Fair point - God said to Adam - "Where are you?" That wasn't a sign that He didn't know.
But I've been making a more fundamental point here. The idea that Jesus was admonishing them suggests they were doing something wrong. This seems to undermine the Calvinists' position that God initiates everything.

Hi Andrew,

Your fundamental point actually isn't a point concerning those who are reformed. . Because, your making your point against something Calvinists don't believe.

Has man through Adam inherited a sinful nature? Yes.

Is man responsible for his own evil actions and moral inability? Yes.

Just those two points alone should hopefully help 🤔

Yes man makes his own choices every single second of the day. But any of those 'moral' choices will ultimately be an out flowing of his nature, the natural man wills from a will that is in bondage to sin. His/her choices are totally theirs.

So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?” Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. ... John 8:31ff

And

And you were kdead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following m the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in n the sons of disobedience— 3among whom we all once lived in o the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Eph 2:1ff


Of course good news is Jesus himself. He brought in the new exodus liberating those who are his from this evil world (kingdom) and takes them to the promised land (God's kingdom and the future hope of eternal life in christ in the new heavens and earth and the new Jerusalem).

Basically:


So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed 8:36

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. Rom 6:6

But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. Rom 6:22




Anyhow, have to go.. Hopefully anything I have said has been helpful to you.. At the least you have truer understanding of reformed thought. 👍👍

 

[Adstar]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

Calvinism is a mistaken interpretation of scripture.. So no it is not true.. But Calvinists are very very assertive when preaching Calvinism..

Anyone who believes the following verse will have big problems with Calvinism::

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

 

[studentoftheword]

This is the verse that Calvinist use to justify their belief that you are saved by God's Grace alone ---Faith is not needed ---and that is simply not the case --Grace comes through Faith -----according to Scripture ---so that is their first mistake -----

Romans 8 AMP

29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.

I say--------- they take one piece of Scripture out of Context and make their own Doctrine out of it ----Dangerous Stuff ------

They believe that God saves some and sends others to hell -----and that is not the case ------

How Romans 8 Made Me a Calvinist
FEBRUARY 5, 2020 | JUSTIN DILLEHAY

https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/romans-8-made-calvinist/

 

[John146]

A Calvinist can never know if they are elect because their own doctrine demands that they endure to the end.

 

[Eli1]

The Truth is basically Jesus Christ who joined in our suffering, sacrificed Himself for us, rose from the dead and told us that He will come back.

That’s the Truth. Anything else in between is people reading a line from the Bible and making a Church out of it.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

Calvanism, like so many man-made systems, is based on faulty logic. For example, Calvanism starts with the premise of God's sovereignty; good so far. But then it makes the erroneous leap to unconditional election and irresistible grace, among other things. It makes assumptions that aren't based on scripture. The New Testament clearly teaches that God is sovereign, but also that we have free will. It couldn't be plainer.

 

[Dirtman]

I think there is danger in trying to figure out the things that are for God alone. There is a verse that says something to the effect of, dont say who will ascend into heaven or who will descend into hell. This is the domain of God alone. I think its easy to fall into the error of so many theologians who try to figure out the intricacies of how God saves a person. Thats not really for us to know. We are to speak the gospel and let God do his work. Calvin made other errors too. His post millennial view caused him to think that if Christians were good enough Jesus would come back, and he turned Geneva into a mess. So in conclusion he was a human.

 

[arthurfleminger]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

I tend to stay away from anything that John Calvin taught about Christianity or the Church. You can tell a tree by it's fruits and Calvin was an evil man, a murderer. John Calvin: Heresy Hunter with an Axe to Grind | A Theology in Tension

It's the same reason that I stay away from anything to do with the Anglican Church. It's founder, Henry VIII, was also deeply evil, another mass murderer.

How can anyone follow a church whose founder is a mass murderer??????? Beats me11111111111

 

[phil36]

(2 Peter 3:9) "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

A beautifully true verse and addressed to Us-ward 😉

____________________________________

I tend to stay away from anything that John Calvin taught about Christianity or the Church. You can tell a tree by it's fruits and Calvin was an evil man, a murderer. John Calvin: Heresy Hunter with an Axe to Grind | A Theology in Tension

It's the same reason that I stay away from anything to do with the Anglican Church. It's founder, Henry VIII, was also deeply evil, another mass murderer.

How can anyone follow a church whose founder is a mass murderer??????? Beats me11111111111

If we follow your logic we will have nothing to do with king who sits on David's throne.. For David murdered an innocent man to hide his sin of adultery.

And yet the bible says David was a man after God's own heart.

Of course none of us would be foolish to say we follow any man except the one who is the Christ Our Lord and saviour.

No thats different from saying that we can agree or disagree with a man's teaching regarding scripture. In fact, would you not want people to believe you when you teach them the gospel (that's if indeed you share it). If they agree with it does not mean they worship you or follow you.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

using Nehemiah6's Scripture reference:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

i prefer Logic and Knowledge over assumption based upon Doctrine, myself.

Verse 17 seems to make things clearest for me.

Look at the term WORLD:

can the WORLD on its own merit be Sinful? NO!
can Nature that include Water/Air/Grass/Trees/Insects/Animals/Dirt on their own merit be Sinful? No!

anything that is SINLESS cannot be CONDEMNED!

but Verse 17 speaks to what [[can be]] CONDEMNED.
that is HUMANITY!

Humanity is born 100% already Condemned by SIN!

so when we read Verse 17, it's clear God came to SAVE what can be CONDEMNED, which is humanity.

Humanity is Everyone because WE are ALL born into SIN!

and Verse 16 tells us that WHOEVER from ALL of HUMANITY [the WORLD] can be SAVED [[if]] they BELIEVE!


Calvinism is a set of Conditions. and nothing in TULIP can be found in Verses 16 and 17!

 

[LoveBrokeThru]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

The fact that many people want you to KNOW they are a "Calvinist"..... first and foremost, as if that means to be a "christian".... exposes the depth of this heretic's mind blinding influence on millions of people.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

After having read the responses, I've begun to wonder if there's been some confusion between me and others. I'll try to clarify:- the main point I was trying to get across was - The Calvinists say that everything that happens is the will of God. Even 'though humans will and do as they wish, EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will. Man's will is shaped, so that he is incapable of thinking, willing or acting any differently from that which is according to God's will.
I hope and believe I have accurately represented the Calvinists' position.
This is the point! God/ Jesus have questioned the rebellious actions of people. This seems bizarre, if everything "comes from God" as God, it seems, would know why people rebel, because He is ultimately behind everything.

 

[Evmur]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

Isn't your avatar's namesake a Calvinist preachers?

Calvinism is ointment poured forth unfortunately a fly got stuck in the apothecary and died and maketh it to stink.

He dropped a clanger on double predestiny and then to shore this doctrine up he added limited atonement. That's why folks howl.

Most Calvinists I ever ment have been the sweetest of brethren ... secure in their faith.

 

[Evmur]

After having read the responses, I've begun to wonder if there's been some confusion between me and others. I'll try to clarify:- the main point I was trying to get across was - The Calvinists say that everything that happens is the will of God. Even 'though humans will and do as they wish, EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will. Man's will is shaped, so that he is incapable of thinking, willing or acting any differently from that which is according to God's will.
I hope and believe I have accurately represented the Calvinists' position.
This is the point! God/ Jesus have questioned the rebellious actions of people. This seems bizarre, if everything "comes from God" as God, it seems, would know why people rebel, because He is ultimately behind everything.

I think that mis represents the Calvinist position on predestination ... it is the caricature people throw up at them.

" God works everything for good to those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose" more suits their belief.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

I think that mis represents the Calvinist position on predestination ... it is the caricature people throw up at them.

" God works everything for good to those who love the Lord and are called to His purpose" more suits their belief.

Can you please point out in what way I misrepresented the Calvinist position?

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

After having read the responses, I've begun to wonder if there's been some confusion between me and others. I'll try to clarify:- the main point I was trying to get across was - The Calvinists say that everything that happens is the will of God. Even 'though humans will and do as they wish, EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will. Man's will is shaped, so that he is incapable of thinking, willing or acting any differently from that which is according to God's will.
I hope and believe I have accurately represented the Calvinists' position.
This is the point! God/ Jesus have questioned the rebellious actions of people. This seems bizarre, if everything "comes from God" as God, it seems, would know why people rebel, because He is ultimately behind everything.

you've just described a Robot, which most Calvin followers are just that.

they don't believe in Free Will. when you add Free Will towards anything they claim, you get a different view.

so the real question is simple, does Free Will exist?

if it does, Calvin is a Heretic!
if it does not, Calvin is a Saint!

and we know Free Will exists because Eve chose to eat and God still provided for her. in the end, Eve decided to disobey and God still was her God. He did not abandon her. and we know she continued to follow God because when she gave birth she gave God credit for it.

 

[AndrewMorgan]

you've just described a Robot, which most Calvin followers are just that.

they don't believe in Free Will. when you add Free Will towards anything they claim, you get a different view.

so the real question is simple, does Free Will exist?

if it does, Calvin is a Heretic!
if it does not, Calvin is a Saint!

and we know Free Will exists because Eve chose to eat and God still provided for her. in the end, Eve decided to disobey and God still was her God. He did not abandon her. and we know she continued to follow God because when she gave birth she gave God credit for it.

you've just described a Robot, which most Calvin followers are just that.

they don't believe in Free Will. when you add Free Will towards anything they claim, you get a different view.

so the real question is simple, does Free Will exist?

if it does, Calvin is a Heretic!
if it does not, Calvin is a Saint!

and we know Free Will exists because Eve chose to eat and God still provided for her. in the end, Eve decided to disobey and God still was her God. He did not abandon her. and we know she continued to follow God because when she gave birth she gave God credit for it.

Have you come across and considered the seeming paradox of the Calvinists' compatibilist freedom doctrine? The idea that God has absolute freedom, including to determine the absolute will of man - his desires, thoughts, actions, while somehow allowing for man's freedom to do what he wants - he has these freedoms, but they're determined by his predestined make-up.
He is "free" to act as he wishes, but he can't POSSIBLY choose to act otherwise.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Until a few years ago, I hadn't encountered Calvinism, instinctively thinking it was a form of operation, like methodism, rather than a belief system. To me, it seems wrong and counter-intuitive, but sometimes, if I'm bombarded with assertions over and over again, I tend to start to wonder - "Am I missing something?" "Is there something in this?".
Would anyone like to give his/ her (preferably biblically-based) beliefs on this subject, as I'd like to learn the truth on this subject?

by asking about “ Calvinism “ in such a generality your sort of inciting many ideas of what Calvinism means as many people have read his writings and came to differing conclusions of what he’s saying

my opinion is he has some good points and some bad conclusions

he comes to the conclusion mankknd is inherantly evil and incapable of doing good incapable of choosing to do good willingly and that God is behind both the good we do and evil we do we have no part on determining our end

Godnis just making some sin and be damned because that’s why they were made and making other repent and live because they were chosen for that purpose ……

he has a lot of good points along the way in his writings but his conclusions are not very sound at all in that it removes mans first estate being given dominion freedom and choice

 

[AndrewMorgan]

by asking about “ Calvinism “ in such a generality your sort of inciting many ideas of what Calvinism means as many people have read his writings and came to differing conclusions of what he’s saying

my opinion is he has some good points and some bad conclusions

he comes to the conclusion mankknd is inherantly evil and incapable of doing good incapable of choosing to do good willingly and that God is behind both the good we do and evil we do we have no part on determining our end

Godnis just making some sin and be damned because that’s why they were made and making other repent and live because they were chosen for that purpose ……

he has a lot of good points along the way in his writings but his conclusions are not very sound at all in that it removes mans first estate being given dominion freedom and choice

One thing I want to point our is that what I mean by "Calvinism" is not necessarily exactly what Calvin meant, but what the likes of James White say.

 

[studentoftheword]

The Calvinists say that everything that happens is the will of God. Even 'though humans will and do as they wish, EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will. Man's will is shaped, so that he is incapable of thinking, willing or acting any differently from that which is according to God's will.

I say
What your saying here needs to be backed up by Scripture -------

So if man is incapable of thinking ---willing or acting differently from God's will ---then you need to provide the Scripture that supports this claim ------the Bible says that God's word is truth ------so if you can't support your Calvinist theory from Scripture then your Calvin theory is a lie and unsupported ------

So You Posted this ------
The Calvinists say that everything that happens is the will of God.

The Calvinist are mere men ----so if you want to just believe what they say ---then your allowing your beliefs to be shaped by Man ---not the truth of Scripture ------

So now you should back up what your Calvinist people are saying -------by Posting the Scripture that supports your posting here

I say ---if there is no scripture that supports what they say then their belief is unsupported by the truth of scripture ------


-I can refute this claim that the Calvinist make here ------and prove that God gave humans a mind to choose --there own will to be done ----

Even 'though humans will and do as they wish, EVERYTHING that happens is the result of God's will. Man's will is shaped, so that he is incapable of thinking, willing or acting any differently from that which is according to God's will.



DEUTERONOMY 30:19

AMPC
I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live

I say
We can choose life or death ------that is God's will --he wants all people to choose life ----and all people can choose life if they are open to the God's call -----it is not God's will for any one's heart to remain hardened toward Him ----but some hearts will remain hardened as they choose to reject God's call for them to come to Him ------

Calvinist believe that God sends some people to hell ------there is not one scripture to back this wrong doctrine up -----


Another thing is -----Cain killed his brother Able ===because of anger and jealousy ----God says to Cain -----verse 7 -----from scripture below

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.

This shows that God's Will is for us to master sin ----not get involved with sin ------so we have a Sin Nature to sin ----but we are not to deprived to resist it if we want to resist it ------Cain didn't take God's advice --he went with his evil emotions and bore the consequences of his own action --- it was not God's will for Cain to kill his brother


Genesis 4:1-8

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

4 And Adam knew Eve as his wife, and she became pregnant and bore Cain; and she said, I have gotten and gained a man with the help of the Lord.
2 And [next] she gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
3 And in the course of time Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground.
4 And Abel brought of the firstborn of his flock and of the fat portions. And the Lord had respect and regard for Abel and for his offering,

5 But for [a]Cain and his offering He had no respect or regard. So Cain was exceedingly angry and indignant, and he looked sad and depressed.
6 And the Lord said to Cain, Why are you angry? And why do you look sad and depressed and dejected?

7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin crouches at your door; its desire is for you, but you must master it.


So here is the thing ----the Truth ----what you choose to believe will determine where you end up in the end -----God has given us that Choice ----can't blame God if we choose to listen to and believe False Doctrine -----