And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil
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The one you quoted in 1261
They have ceased existing. They have been punished. There punishment was death. Death is being blotted out. No feeling, no thinking,
NOT PRESENT ANY WHERE GOD IS PRESENT.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The only dead that would be standing in judgment are the dead who were raised when Christ returned. If you can show me another resurrection of the dead in between I would sure appreciate you sharing this knowledge.
THEN what do we notice? Not everyone from hell was raised up at that resurrection.
So then what happens?
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
THEY didn't raise up with the dead because they were destroyed in hell, they would just be delivered up to the lake of fire.
Super simple. SO you might maybe want to WATCH OUT for how you ATTACK when you think you know it all, because there in ONE THING WE CAN know for sure and that is WE know basically, nothing. We are barely above the 'knowing nothing at all' line on the scale of what there is to know.
They have ceased existing. They have been punished. There punishment was death. Death is being blotted out. No feeling, no thinking,
NOT PRESENT ANY WHERE GOD IS PRESENT.
Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The only dead that would be standing in judgment are the dead who were raised when Christ returned. If you can show me another resurrection of the dead in between I would sure appreciate you sharing this knowledge.
THEN what do we notice? Not everyone from hell was raised up at that resurrection.
So then what happens?
Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
THEY didn't raise up with the dead because they were destroyed in hell, they would just be delivered up to the lake of fire.
Super simple. SO you might maybe want to WATCH OUT for how you ATTACK when you think you know it all, because there in ONE THING WE CAN know for sure and that is WE know basically, nothing. We are barely above the 'knowing nothing at all' line on the scale of what there is to know.
I changed my mind on being here in this thread for years. I don’t plan to respond much more in this thread. The last theory he had was there is no proof that saved resurrected people keep their souls. If that’s true then unsaved resurrected people don’t have souls either which brings us back full circle to the unsaved not living forever in hell. So his theory actually debunks his position.
I’ll still keep watching this thread to see what people are talking about. I might join in sometimes.
I’ll still keep watching this thread to see what people are talking about. I might join in sometimes.
Here's a fact for you guys.
The argument about "immortal souls" as in "God alone is immortal" isn't true, of course. When the Bible says God alone is immortal, then obviously no one else is.
So, souls aren't the same as God, obviously. God is eternal; no beginning and no ending. Souls are everlasting. They have a beginning but no ending. That's the point.
So every soul will exist forever, being everlasting. God gives everlasting life to people. That refers to the body, which is obvious from ALL the Scripture about the resurrection.
So, all unbelievers WILL experience an everlasting torment in the LOF. Just as the Bible says.
The argument about "immortal souls" as in "God alone is immortal" isn't true, of course. When the Bible says God alone is immortal, then obviously no one else is.
So, souls aren't the same as God, obviously. God is eternal; no beginning and no ending. Souls are everlasting. They have a beginning but no ending. That's the point.
So every soul will exist forever, being everlasting. God gives everlasting life to people. That refers to the body, which is obvious from ALL the Scripture about the resurrection.
So, all unbelievers WILL experience an everlasting torment in the LOF. Just as the Bible says.
I agree with some of the basic components of what you just said, but overall I would have to disagree. What I’m willing to accept is that we understand the Bible and God completely different.
That’s possibly due to applying inference and interpretation in different ways. When I began Christianity I was given a firm Berean mentality. I’ll fact check the pastors and preachers from the pews, flipping through the Bible as the sermon drones on. Don’t assume anything, even from brethren, just take what the Bible says and accept it. If one can set aside their assumptions and traditions they’ll most likely come to the same conclusion as myself.
The strength of conditional immortality (or annihilationism if you prefer) is that it can be found on the surface level of dozens of verses and passages. Eternal conscious torment for all unsaved cannot be seen in surface level reading and has to be taught by stringing together verses out of context and making many assumptions.
Conditional immortality doesn’t suffer from that problem which makes it a stronger and more likely interpretation. That’s what I believe what I do. I insist on strong Biblical support. We all should.
That’s possibly due to applying inference and interpretation in different ways. When I began Christianity I was given a firm Berean mentality. I’ll fact check the pastors and preachers from the pews, flipping through the Bible as the sermon drones on. Don’t assume anything, even from brethren, just take what the Bible says and accept it. If one can set aside their assumptions and traditions they’ll most likely come to the same conclusion as myself.
The strength of conditional immortality (or annihilationism if you prefer) is that it can be found on the surface level of dozens of verses and passages. Eternal conscious torment for all unsaved cannot be seen in surface level reading and has to be taught by stringing together verses out of context and making many assumptions.
Conditional immortality doesn’t suffer from that problem which makes it a stronger and more likely interpretation. That’s what I believe what I do. I insist on strong Biblical support. We all should.
That is because you have a BIAS against unbelievers being consciously punished for eternity.
No, it's very clear and real simple. But you have to put your bias away to see the truth. You can't stand the truth since it violates your bias. That is what drives your "interpretation".
Sad that you left it. I haven't. It is my sole basis for understanding the Bible.
The bolded words are where your problem is. You begin with the assumption that everlasting conscious punishment is CRUEL and you can't accept that. So you transfer YOUR opinion on to God as if He agrees with you and would never do that to anyone.
However, He will do that to 2 human beings, and they will be conscious for 1,000 years BEFORE joined by Satan and his angels. And all of them will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then, immediately after that is the GWT judgment, where all unbelievers join THEM in the LOF.
I have always agreed with that. But you just won't accept that it always refers to the body. Yes, the body will be destroyed in the LOF.
It sure can, but your BIAS keeps you from accepting it. Dan 12:2 speaks of everlasting shame and contempt but you apply Isa 66 to that verse just because the same word is in both. However, there is no evidence that the LOF will be anywhere near the NE so your idea isn't logical or sensible. Matt 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment, so you twist the word punishment to mean that the soul doesn't have to be present to experience the punishment, which is nonsensical.
But you have no evidence or support from the Bible that God WILL destroy souls. The fact that He CAN doesn't help you. There is nothing that says He will.
And every text about the believer's resurrection is only about the body being raised imperishable (immortal). So believers will live forever in their physical body, but no longer mortal but immortal. There is NO mention of souls being given immortality.
And since souls are immaterial, there is NOTHING perishable about a soul anyway, so it is silly to even speak of an immaterial soul to be destroyed.
And you don't have any support from Scripture. As I've shown, over and over.
The Bible is clear that the LOF will exist forever. And those cast into it will experience punishment forever.
That is the Berean method of Bible study.
By admitting that you think ECT is CRUEL, you've played your hand and unwittingly admitted your BIAS.
God is not maudlin, as you and your cohorts are. He is perfect, and His justice is perfect. Everyone who will be cast into the LOF will be on the basis of their own decisions. They have no excuse.
And since there are only 2 places ultimately for humans after physical death, it is either with God or the LOF.
So unbelievers have made their own choice. And God is just. You just think He is as maudlin as you are.
No, it's very clear and real simple. But you have to put your bias away to see the truth. You can't stand the truth since it violates your bias. That is what drives your "interpretation".
Sad that you left it. I haven't. It is my sole basis for understanding the Bible.
The bolded words are where your problem is. You begin with the assumption that everlasting conscious punishment is CRUEL and you can't accept that. So you transfer YOUR opinion on to God as if He agrees with you and would never do that to anyone.
However, He will do that to 2 human beings, and they will be conscious for 1,000 years BEFORE joined by Satan and his angels. And all of them will be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Then, immediately after that is the GWT judgment, where all unbelievers join THEM in the LOF.
I have always agreed with that. But you just won't accept that it always refers to the body. Yes, the body will be destroyed in the LOF.
It sure can, but your BIAS keeps you from accepting it. Dan 12:2 speaks of everlasting shame and contempt but you apply Isa 66 to that verse just because the same word is in both. However, there is no evidence that the LOF will be anywhere near the NE so your idea isn't logical or sensible. Matt 25:46 speaks of eternal punishment, so you twist the word punishment to mean that the soul doesn't have to be present to experience the punishment, which is nonsensical.
But you have no evidence or support from the Bible that God WILL destroy souls. The fact that He CAN doesn't help you. There is nothing that says He will.
And every text about the believer's resurrection is only about the body being raised imperishable (immortal). So believers will live forever in their physical body, but no longer mortal but immortal. There is NO mention of souls being given immortality.
And since souls are immaterial, there is NOTHING perishable about a soul anyway, so it is silly to even speak of an immaterial soul to be destroyed.
And you don't have any support from Scripture. As I've shown, over and over.
The Bible is clear that the LOF will exist forever. And those cast into it will experience punishment forever.
That is the Berean method of Bible study.
By admitting that you think ECT is CRUEL, you've played your hand and unwittingly admitted your BIAS.
God is not maudlin, as you and your cohorts are. He is perfect, and His justice is perfect. Everyone who will be cast into the LOF will be on the basis of their own decisions. They have no excuse.
And since there are only 2 places ultimately for humans after physical death, it is either with God or the LOF.
So unbelievers have made their own choice. And God is just. You just think He is as maudlin as you are.
There is no bias against anything other that your misinterpretation of what is written. Precept on precept, precept on precept verse by verse speaks of death and destruction and perish and 2nd death in the lake of fire. DEATH is the penalty for sin, not eternal torment.
Is there ANY torment in the 1st death? No, WE DON'T EVEN FEAR THE DEATH OF THE BODY
SO HOW CAN DEATH BE ETERNAL TORMENT? There are those who will RISE UP FROM THE DEAD and find their names written in the book of life 1000 years later. WHERE IS THE ETERNAL TORMENT in that? THERE isn't any. SO death does not equal eternal torment.
SALVATION is a GIFT given - not something we are born with. What are we SAVED from? DEATH, not torment.
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Hopefully even baby Christians know that a body without a soul is nothing more than dust so when immortality is spoken of it, it is the soul/spirit in the spiritual body, for this natural body shall die NEVER TO BE RAISED UP AGAIN, besides the 'bare grain' that comes of it, it does nothing but feed the worms and scavengers
SMOKE is a by product of something being consumed. GOD USES THINGS WE KNOW AND USE EVERYDAY TO EXPLAIN WHAT HE MEANS. GATHER them, bind them, burn them.
So lets go gather some dead and withered branches and burn them and WATCH THE PROCESS that GOD has set forth as an example.
They are on fire, as they are burnt UP they produce smoke and then when they are consumed THE FIRE DIES OUT. They are nothing but ashes, the smoke having gone up, for ever and ever. If they were in torment in the fire it was for a specific amount of time.
WHY WOULD GOD GIVE US THAT ANALOGY IF THAT WASN'T WHAT GOD MEANT? Wouldn't that be CONFUSING OR A CAUSE FOR CONFUSION?
BUT, you say it is the 'ON GOING TORTURE' continually producing THE SMOKE OF THEIR TORMENT because it is for ever and ever.
By that type of reasoning, these ALSO WILL NOT BE OF THE FORMER THINGS
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.
So now we have the GREAT WHORE having been judged, not put in the lake of fire and HER SMOKE rises up for ever and ever.
EITHER the former things are passed away or they are not.
The smoke that rises up for ever and ever means eternally in torment or eternally rising smoke
Death is given as the opposite of life. Death is given as the end of a thing.
The 2nd death is in the lake of fire the JUDGMENT that lasts forever, the punishment being death of both the soul and the body, not eternal torment.
To be clear, THAT IS THE BIAS, that is what we are SAYING is not written.
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Who are we told SPECIFICALLY shall be tormented??? the devil
What are we SPECIFICALLY told about the souls that go into the lake of fire?
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
THEIR PART IS DEATH. No mention of eternal torment. Again, there is only one 'written' tormented day and night, though lots go in...
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
SO FAR the only one written is the devil
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
SO FAR the only one written is the devil
EVEN WAY BACK HERE WE READ
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
What is written about the souls is THEIR PART takes place IN THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY ANGELS, AND THE LAMB
Who all believes the HOLY ANGELS and the LAMB will be watching the lake of fire FOR EVER AND EVER from that point on?
Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever.......
THE SMOKE of their torment ASCENDS...
and they have no rest day nor night,
DAY AND NIGHT ARE OF THE FORMER AGE
Revelation 22:1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
Revelation 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him
More proof that the lake of fire is of the past
Revelation 22:4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
Revelation 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Conflict after conflict after conflict is found IN SCRIPTURE for those who teach eternal torment by the grouping of two words. Eternal conflict goes AGAINST righteousness AS EVERYONE KNOWS.
WE do KNOW THE MIND OF GOD as He makes shows us by using the laws of nature for us TO understand HOW HE WORKS.
1. Our bias is again 'the doctrine being introduced' through the combination of two words, not what is written
2. Since we are told don't FEAR death we know that death is NOT eternal torture/torment
3. Salvation is A GIFT we are not born with it
4. Smoke is a by product of something being consumed
5. God uses the laws of nature to explain what He means so we are without excuse
6. Smoke ascends for ever and ever in multiple different places none of them supporting death is eternal torment
7. Only the devil is mentioned as being tormented day and night
8. It is written souls will have their part and their part will be witnessed by the angels and the Lamb
9. It is the smoke that ascends for ever, not some kind of torture taking place
10. There is no night nor day in the new heavens and earth
11. The former things are passed away
12. There will be no more curse
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You don’t need to reply to every point. The more points you try to make the more scripture there is to oppose you.
Looking at your comment history, just seems like you don’t know how to communicate with people who are made in God’s image with any respect.
Keep talking like that you’ll be opposed at every angle, having convinced no one, losing all respect, and damaging the Christian name.
The last thing we need is a contentious man running around claiming he’s a Christian and using insults against people. Fix your attitude and then revisit Bible discussions.
Looking at your comment history, just seems like you don’t know how to communicate with people who are made in God’s image with any respect.
Keep talking like that you’ll be opposed at every angle, having convinced no one, losing all respect, and damaging the Christian name.
The last thing we need is a contentious man running around claiming he’s a Christian and using insults against people. Fix your attitude and then revisit Bible discussions.
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FreeGrace2 said:
That is because you have a BIAS against unbelievers being consciously punished for eternity.
I read your posts. You and Runner are in lock step on this doctrine. And one of you SAID that ECT is CRUEL, and it was said in capital letters. That is the bias.
Yet, the Bible speaks of eternal torment in Rev 20:10, so you still have no point. And yes, there is death for sin. But you cannot show anywhere that "death" means "ceasing to exist". That's just you making stuff up.
It isn't, obviously. But the soul will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
No, 1,000 years EARLIER than the unbeliever's resurrection. The believer's resurrection will be "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent and plainly stated in 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 and shown in Rev 20:4-5.
Right. The eternal torment is IN IN IN the LOF. Rev 20:10. That applies to all who will be cast into it.
I never said that. The death is the death of the resurrected yet mortal physical body of the unsaved. Only to die again.
Both. Whether you believe it or not. Doesn't matter.
What in the world??!! When immortality is mentioned, it is ALWAYS THE BODY. You are just wrong. And the believer's physical body WILL BE RAISED UP AGAIN, at the resurrection. I guess you just aren't familiar with all the texts on the believer's resurrection.
Let me ask you this, which I doubt you'll answer. When something is being burned up (consumed), how long is there smoke after the thing is all burned up, so that nothing is left?
Well, we WON'T see any unbelievers burning up in the LOF. But they will be burned up, nonetheless.
Then the body ceases to exist, the smoke ceases, since there isn't anything left to burn/smoke.
No, to be "utterly destroyed" as you put it, there will be NO ashes. Don't make an ash of yourself by these kind of errors.
Really? Where did you learn that? Are you just guessing or presuming again? What verse says such a thing? Obviously the body will burn up, which will take time, the timing of which we DO NOT KNOW.
However, there is no evidence that God gives immortality to souls of believers so that shows that they already ARE immortal. In fact, being immaterial, the soul can't be burned up by fire.
God did mean it. And He was referring to the body, obviously. That is what all the words like "destroy" and "perish" refer to.
Explain where all this smoke is coming from after the body is totally consumed?? Can you?
In EVERY fire I've ever seen, when all the product is burned up (wood, paper etc), the smoke ceases. It sure doesn't smoke for ever and ever.
The verse about "former things" applies to believers only.
Isa 65:17 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
Those on the NE will be believers ONLY. And so the "former things" refers to the physical life of the believers. It has nothing to do with unbelievers, who will already be in the LOF.
None of this refers to the LOF, obviously.
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.[/QUOTE]
Where do you think the great whore will be cast? In the LOF. She will suffer the EXACT same thing as the beast, FP and Satan and his angels.
Where do you get that she isn't cast into the LOF? Where do all unbelievers go after the GWT judgment?
Why would she be exempt?
That is for the believers, not the unbelievers.
Of course.
What verse speaks of the death of an immaterial soul? Many verses speak of souls dying but in all the contexts, it's referring to people dying physically.
You need to BELIEVE Rev 20:10.
That is because you have a BIAS against unbelievers being consciously punished for eternity.
I read your posts. You and Runner are in lock step on this doctrine. And one of you SAID that ECT is CRUEL, and it was said in capital letters. That is the bias.
Yet, the Bible speaks of eternal torment in Rev 20:10, so you still have no point. And yes, there is death for sin. But you cannot show anywhere that "death" means "ceasing to exist". That's just you making stuff up.
It isn't, obviously. But the soul will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
No, 1,000 years EARLIER than the unbeliever's resurrection. The believer's resurrection will be "when He comes" a reference to the Second Advent and plainly stated in 1 Cor 15:23 and 2 Thess 2:1 and shown in Rev 20:4-5.
Right. The eternal torment is IN IN IN the LOF. Rev 20:10. That applies to all who will be cast into it.
I never said that. The death is the death of the resurrected yet mortal physical body of the unsaved. Only to die again.
Both. Whether you believe it or not. Doesn't matter.
What in the world??!! When immortality is mentioned, it is ALWAYS THE BODY. You are just wrong. And the believer's physical body WILL BE RAISED UP AGAIN, at the resurrection. I guess you just aren't familiar with all the texts on the believer's resurrection.
Let me ask you this, which I doubt you'll answer. When something is being burned up (consumed), how long is there smoke after the thing is all burned up, so that nothing is left?
Well, we WON'T see any unbelievers burning up in the LOF. But they will be burned up, nonetheless.
Then the body ceases to exist, the smoke ceases, since there isn't anything left to burn/smoke.
No, to be "utterly destroyed" as you put it, there will be NO ashes. Don't make an ash of yourself by these kind of errors.
Really? Where did you learn that? Are you just guessing or presuming again? What verse says such a thing? Obviously the body will burn up, which will take time, the timing of which we DO NOT KNOW.
However, there is no evidence that God gives immortality to souls of believers so that shows that they already ARE immortal. In fact, being immaterial, the soul can't be burned up by fire.
God did mean it. And He was referring to the body, obviously. That is what all the words like "destroy" and "perish" refer to.
Explain where all this smoke is coming from after the body is totally consumed?? Can you?
In EVERY fire I've ever seen, when all the product is burned up (wood, paper etc), the smoke ceases. It sure doesn't smoke for ever and ever.
The verse about "former things" applies to believers only.
Isa 65:17 - “See, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
Those on the NE will be believers ONLY. And so the "former things" refers to the physical life of the believers. It has nothing to do with unbelievers, who will already be in the LOF.
None of this refers to the LOF, obviously.
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.
Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.[/QUOTE]
Where do you think the great whore will be cast? In the LOF. She will suffer the EXACT same thing as the beast, FP and Satan and his angels.
Where do you get that she isn't cast into the LOF? Where do all unbelievers go after the GWT judgment?
Why would she be exempt?
That is for the believers, not the unbelievers.
Of course.
What verse speaks of the death of an immaterial soul? Many verses speak of souls dying but in all the contexts, it's referring to people dying physically.
You need to BELIEVE Rev 20:10.
Part two, to answer klero's long post.
Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
it
That's 2 humans and all the fallen angels. And what IMMEDIATELY follows is the fate of all the rest of the unbelievers. They too will be cast into the same LOF. And suffer the exact same thing.
If they aren't going to, why doesn't the Bible say so? As it is, all you are doing is expressing your own opinion.
Back in Rev 19 we are told that the beast and FP are cast alive in the LOF.
19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
This isn't debatable. 2 human beings are cast alive into the LOF. And 1,000 years later comes Satan and his angels.
20:10 says "where the beast and FP ARE". So Satan and his ilk join them in the torment which is day and night for ever and ever.
And you don't believe that. But the Bible says that.
We are not told anything about "souls" being cast into the LOF. We ARE told about physical human people being cast into it.
Right. They bodies. Why are you unable to grasp this very clear and simple concept?
Why does it have to be mentioned AGAIN? Just to satisfy your unbelief? It is mentioned in Rev 20:10. That's enough.
Tough. It's clear enough. You just don't want to believe it. You are so dug into your own opinions.
I'm tired of your very poor reading skills. Rev 19:20 says plainly that 2 humans will be cast into the LOF and they will STILL be there 1,000 years later when Satan and all his angels will be cast in.
Pure nonsense.
iow, they are being tormented by the fire which produces smoke. And it ascends for ever and ever.
Rev 14:11 is forward looking to the GWT judgment, and agrees with 20:10.
so what? The verse in Rev 21 is for believers on the NE. It has no application to the unbelievers who are being tormented day and night, for ever and ever.
Oh, I see now. You think that just because the LOF is mentioned in Rev 20 and then we have in Rev 21 the NE, that the LOF represents something "of the past".
How ridiculous. Since the LOF will be torment for day and night for ever and ever, there is NO past tense for the LOF. It is a continuing event for the souls of the unbelievers and all the fallen angels. So the LOF CANNOT be "of the past".
Rev 20:10 teaches eternal torment. Clearly and simply.
What are you talking about here? Please explain your comment.
He also uses plain and clear words to explain what He does.
All this is for the believer only. It does not apply to unbelievers. Why you think that is a real mystery.
Rev 20:10 - And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
it
That's 2 humans and all the fallen angels. And what IMMEDIATELY follows is the fate of all the rest of the unbelievers. They too will be cast into the same LOF. And suffer the exact same thing.
If they aren't going to, why doesn't the Bible say so? As it is, all you are doing is expressing your own opinion.
Back in Rev 19 we are told that the beast and FP are cast alive in the LOF.
19:20 - But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.
This isn't debatable. 2 human beings are cast alive into the LOF. And 1,000 years later comes Satan and his angels.
20:10 says "where the beast and FP ARE". So Satan and his ilk join them in the torment which is day and night for ever and ever.
And you don't believe that. But the Bible says that.
We are not told anything about "souls" being cast into the LOF. We ARE told about physical human people being cast into it.
Right. They bodies. Why are you unable to grasp this very clear and simple concept?
Why does it have to be mentioned AGAIN? Just to satisfy your unbelief? It is mentioned in Rev 20:10. That's enough.
Tough. It's clear enough. You just don't want to believe it. You are so dug into your own opinions.
I'm tired of your very poor reading skills. Rev 19:20 says plainly that 2 humans will be cast into the LOF and they will STILL be there 1,000 years later when Satan and all his angels will be cast in.
Pure nonsense.
iow, they are being tormented by the fire which produces smoke. And it ascends for ever and ever.
Rev 14:11 is forward looking to the GWT judgment, and agrees with 20:10.
so what? The verse in Rev 21 is for believers on the NE. It has no application to the unbelievers who are being tormented day and night, for ever and ever.
Oh, I see now. You think that just because the LOF is mentioned in Rev 20 and then we have in Rev 21 the NE, that the LOF represents something "of the past".
How ridiculous. Since the LOF will be torment for day and night for ever and ever, there is NO past tense for the LOF. It is a continuing event for the souls of the unbelievers and all the fallen angels. So the LOF CANNOT be "of the past".
Rev 20:10 teaches eternal torment. Clearly and simply.
What are you talking about here? Please explain your comment.
He also uses plain and clear words to explain what He does.
All this is for the believer only. It does not apply to unbelievers. Why you think that is a real mystery.
That is hilarious. Since Rev 20:10 refutes your entire opinion.
Give me an example, if you have one.
OK, give me ane example.
OK, show me any "insult" I've used again anyone. Then show me where I've been "contentious".
I would like post # for anyone who follows this thread so they can see for themselves. And actually include the specific quote. Just identifying a post # to a long response to one of your long posts won't be enough.
So, I need the post # and actual quote if you have any to prove what you claim.
My approach has always been to ask for verses that SAY what the poster claims. That is exactly how the Bereans checked out Paul's preaching in Acts 17:11. I do the same.
Give me an example, if you have one.
OK, give me ane example.
OK, show me any "insult" I've used again anyone. Then show me where I've been "contentious".
I would like post # for anyone who follows this thread so they can see for themselves. And actually include the specific quote. Just identifying a post # to a long response to one of your long posts won't be enough.
So, I need the post # and actual quote if you have any to prove what you claim.
My approach has always been to ask for verses that SAY what the poster claims. That is exactly how the Bereans checked out Paul's preaching in Acts 17:11. I do the same.
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Uh these aren’t claims and you know that. Anyone who’s talked to you here knows you’re rude, arrogant, and full of pride. That’s your reputation you’ve created for yourself and your comment history is open to anyone willing to verify, but that isn’t necessary. For starters, you repeatedly called me and another Christian crying drunks even after being told to stop.
Luke 16
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggarnamed Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
hmm
the rich man in hades not cease to exist, he us in agony
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggarnamed Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried.23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
hmm
the rich man in hades not cease to exist, he us in agony