Scripture is Our Source of Truth???????????
- Thread starter arthurfleminger
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The only comment that got me and I think a few others was "if they aren't leading anyone to Christ they are not of God! "
One I don't think it's true but that's not the point I was more worried that if you get it wrong you could be accusing or judging the work of God in someone's life, more a warning in case your wrong instead of me not agreeing with you
Because the main point of whether they are of God is if they have been born again then they become a child of God, The fruit you might see can be a while after they have already been a child of God, Imagine you just had your first child and someone said to you that's not your child because he can't walk or talk yet, what would you say
One I don't think it's true but that's not the point I was more worried that if you get it wrong you could be accusing or judging the work of God in someone's life, more a warning in case your wrong instead of me not agreeing with you
Because the main point of whether they are of God is if they have been born again then they become a child of God, The fruit you might see can be a while after they have already been a child of God, Imagine you just had your first child and someone said to you that's not your child because he can't walk or talk yet, what would you say
-
1
- Show all
Maybe, you could be right. But I have a feeling that there is some background information needed. That Isaiah was talking about something other than the way one does bible study. Like maybe he was talking about something that was understood by the readers at the time but we need a point of reference from his day.
I am getting a vibe about "legalism" from the perspective of those who are approaching the Law with the wrong heart maybe. Like they are not grasping the spirit of the Word but hung up on precept upon precept. Like it is a weariness to them because they aren't being illuminated.
The promise of the Spirit that they need is there. And then the fact that when it was poured out and people spoke in tongues they still did not believe (sign for unbelievers).
That too suggests that the idea in this text might be a contrast between those who approach the OT law in a legalistic unenlightened attitude "line up line..etc" are not the ones that are learning doctrine and the true teaching of knowledge from God's heart and mind. The truths behind the laws elude them.
Or they can't see because of the condition of their heart. Like He is trying to tell them why they can't see. "Precept upon Precept is all they are getting and he is going to give them over to that darkness.
Based on verse 13 I am wondering if he is saying that these are not the ones who are learning doctrine. Because they approach it like that. That intimacy with God is the key but that their attitude about line upon line and precept upon precept might be like the Pharisees and the writers of the Talmud.
I need to take some time to really read from some Isaiah commentaries I purchased a few years ago that were highly recommended. There is a lot about Isaiah that requires background information and cultural context and I just think people are not grasping his point the way they apply it to bible study. When I hear them I always get a little check saying "I don't think that's what that means." But I have to admit that I have not dug into it yet.
I am getting a vibe about "legalism" from the perspective of those who are approaching the Law with the wrong heart maybe. Like they are not grasping the spirit of the Word but hung up on precept upon precept. Like it is a weariness to them because they aren't being illuminated.
The promise of the Spirit that they need is there. And then the fact that when it was poured out and people spoke in tongues they still did not believe (sign for unbelievers).
That too suggests that the idea in this text might be a contrast between those who approach the OT law in a legalistic unenlightened attitude "line up line..etc" are not the ones that are learning doctrine and the true teaching of knowledge from God's heart and mind. The truths behind the laws elude them.
Or they can't see because of the condition of their heart. Like He is trying to tell them why they can't see. "Precept upon Precept is all they are getting and he is going to give them over to that darkness.
Based on verse 13 I am wondering if he is saying that these are not the ones who are learning doctrine. Because they approach it like that. That intimacy with God is the key but that their attitude about line upon line and precept upon precept might be like the Pharisees and the writers of the Talmud.
I need to take some time to really read from some Isaiah commentaries I purchased a few years ago that were highly recommended. There is a lot about Isaiah that requires background information and cultural context and I just think people are not grasping his point the way they apply it to bible study. When I hear them I always get a little check saying "I don't think that's what that means." But I have to admit that I have not dug into it yet.
-
1
- Show all
i am reminded of our own commission
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
20 teaching them to observe all things whatever I commanded you.
i see that as our true duty to be doing as Followers of God. but when you have beliefs like God made some people for Heaven and some for Hell, no way will those who believe as such be out witnessing to the lost.
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
20 teaching them to observe all things whatever I commanded you.
i see that as our true duty to be doing as Followers of God. but when you have beliefs like God made some people for Heaven and some for Hell, no way will those who believe as such be out witnessing to the lost.
That's Good but you said it was your commission the great commission is great, But I wouldn't expect others to be like you or where your at or you will just become a standard and the judge of it
It's a great duty to earn great rewards, But it has to be God working through you or you won't have any power on your own, without God you can't do anything
That's a fair point so just stick with scripture and do the best you can out of truth and love, you will only reach a dark world with light, and Jesus is the light, offer them Jesus offer them hope offer them the gospel, leave the judging to someone else you don't earn anything good from that
It's a great duty to earn great rewards, But it has to be God working through you or you won't have any power on your own, without God you can't do anything
That's a fair point so just stick with scripture and do the best you can out of truth and love, you will only reach a dark world with light, and Jesus is the light, offer them Jesus offer them hope offer them the gospel, leave the judging to someone else you don't earn anything good from that
-
1
- Show all
Rewards?
you should just be able to think what's going to happen if i don't speak up and say something about God to these people!
but since we are on/off about Creeds.
do you think it is a Godly Creed that God predestined some for Hell and some for Heaven so it will work itself out and no need to be a Witness for God?
i find nowhere where God exists at in that Creed!
you should just be able to think what's going to happen if i don't speak up and say something about God to these people!
but since we are on/off about Creeds.
do you think it is a Godly Creed that God predestined some for Hell and some for Heaven so it will work itself out and no need to be a Witness for God?
i find nowhere where God exists at in that Creed!
A couple of commentaries from my collection:
9ff. The Hebrew of Do and do and rule on rule is, respectively, ṣāw and qāw. The former may occur in Hosea 5:11 (see the RV and cf. the NIV) but is an obviously possible noun formation meaning ‘command’. The latter is well established as ‘line’ (1 Ki. 7:23), understood by the NIV in the sense of ‘rule’, which is unexemplified elsewhere.
Motyer, J. Alec. The Prophecy of Isaiah (p. 231). InterVarsity Press.
9“Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast?
This being a question from those who didn't like Isaiah.
10For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there.”
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”—but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.
Oswalt, John . Isaiah (The NIV Application Commentary) (p. 315). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.
So according to a couple of commentaries they are saying that those that opposed him were complaining that he was trying to teach them like they were babies. But then he said that because they won't listen they would be taken over by Assyria and be taught like they were babies. Something like that.
Like I said, I don't think it has anything to do with bible study and the way people have been known to use it. It's the wrong scripture to use to talk about how we are going to study the bible in a bible study class.
I always knew it was. The first time I heard a preacher use it I thought "I don't think that is what Isaiah had in mind." It's rather obvious when you read the context.
9ff. The Hebrew of Do and do and rule on rule is, respectively, ṣāw and qāw. The former may occur in Hosea 5:11 (see the RV and cf. the NIV) but is an obviously possible noun formation meaning ‘command’. The latter is well established as ‘line’ (1 Ki. 7:23), understood by the NIV in the sense of ‘rule’, which is unexemplified elsewhere.
Motyer, J. Alec. The Prophecy of Isaiah (p. 231). InterVarsity Press.
9“Who is it he is trying to teach? To whom is he explaining his message? To children weaned from their milk, to those just taken from the breast?
This being a question from those who didn't like Isaiah.
10For it is: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there.”
11Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, 12to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”—but they would not listen.
13So then, the word of the LORD to them will become: Do and do, do and do, rule on rule, rule on rule; a little here, a little there— so that they will go and fall backward, be injured and snared and captured.
Oswalt, John . Isaiah (The NIV Application Commentary) (p. 315). Zondervan Academic. Kindle Edition.
So according to a couple of commentaries they are saying that those that opposed him were complaining that he was trying to teach them like they were babies. But then he said that because they won't listen they would be taken over by Assyria and be taught like they were babies. Something like that.
Like I said, I don't think it has anything to do with bible study and the way people have been known to use it. It's the wrong scripture to use to talk about how we are going to study the bible in a bible study class.
I always knew it was. The first time I heard a preacher use it I thought "I don't think that is what Isaiah had in mind." It's rather obvious when you read the context.-
1
- Show all
It might be hijacking the thread or it might not be but here is something else I read.
Many commentators have been puzzled by v. 10 and have wrestled to make sense of the Hebrew. The truth seems to be, as the NIV margin suggests, that it is not meant to make sense. Isaiah’s words have hardly penetrated the alcohol-impregnated atmosphere that surrounds his hearers. What they have picked up are simply stray syllables (ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw zeʿêr šām zeʿêr šām), most of them repeated, like the baby talk
Grogan, Rev. Geoffrey W.. Isaiah (The Expositor's Bible Commentary)
So it turns out that the translation of these words are ambiguous. Like they aren't really sure. You can read about why they came up with line upon line, or law upon law, or rule upon rule, or command upon command but you don't get the warm fuzzy that anyone knows for sure. At least I haven't yet. Maybe he was talking in tongues?
The explanation above by Grogan might be closer to the truth.
Whatever Isaiah was saying I am pretty sure it wasn't how to teach or study the bible or what we should tell people we are going to do when we start a new verse by verse bible study on a book of the bible.
Many commentators have been puzzled by v. 10 and have wrestled to make sense of the Hebrew. The truth seems to be, as the NIV margin suggests, that it is not meant to make sense. Isaiah’s words have hardly penetrated the alcohol-impregnated atmosphere that surrounds his hearers. What they have picked up are simply stray syllables (ṣaw lāṣāw ṣaw lāṣāw qaw lāqāw qaw lāqāw zeʿêr šām zeʿêr šām), most of them repeated, like the baby talk
Grogan, Rev. Geoffrey W.. Isaiah (The Expositor's Bible Commentary)
So it turns out that the translation of these words are ambiguous. Like they aren't really sure. You can read about why they came up with line upon line, or law upon law, or rule upon rule, or command upon command but you don't get the warm fuzzy that anyone knows for sure. At least I haven't yet. Maybe he was talking in tongues?
The explanation above by Grogan might be closer to the truth.
Whatever Isaiah was saying I am pretty sure it wasn't how to teach or study the bible or what we should tell people we are going to do when we start a new verse by verse bible study on a book of the bible.
Yea are you doing it to try be saved or out of Love, Just so happens Gods so generous he blesses and rewards
Same as every other day, and if me and you disappear the world will carry on the same without us, But you can win souls while you are here but it has to be Gods way, and that is faith and love, then things interesting
I think
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
applies to whosever
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So the offer is to whosoever, and the condition is to believe in Jesus, no need for creeds
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, That Was God bearing our sins pouring out his own Blood
Don't worry about creeds if you want to win souls you need to do it through Paul's Gospel given to him By Jesus, then creeds are irrelevant as you can't choose someone's faith for them, they need to believe for themselves
1st Corinthians 15
15Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Same as every other day, and if me and you disappear the world will carry on the same without us, But you can win souls while you are here but it has to be Gods way, and that is faith and love, then things interesting
I think
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
applies to whosever
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
So the offer is to whosoever, and the condition is to believe in Jesus, no need for creeds
God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, That Was God bearing our sins pouring out his own Blood
Don't worry about creeds if you want to win souls you need to do it through Paul's Gospel given to him By Jesus, then creeds are irrelevant as you can't choose someone's faith for them, they need to believe for themselves
1st Corinthians 15
15Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
-
1
- Show all
why do i need to work for something that has been [[((given))]] to me and God has done all of the work for me?
there is no other way but God's Way. God puts people into our paths for us to share Him to. how difficult is that for you to understand? they would not be there unless God put them there for us to be a Witness to.
AMEN!
Ephesians Chapter 1, very good!
i was never taught Creeds so why would i adhere to them? i was taught the Word of God and why it's easy to be a Witness.
i have been saying this all throughout this thread i do as Commanded in Matthew 28:
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
20 teaching them to observe all things whatever I commanded you.
there is no other way but God's Way. God puts people into our paths for us to share Him to. how difficult is that for you to understand? they would not be there unless God put them there for us to be a Witness to.
AMEN!
Ephesians Chapter 1, very good!
i was never taught Creeds so why would i adhere to them? i was taught the Word of God and why it's easy to be a Witness.
i have been saying this all throughout this thread i do as Commanded in Matthew 28:
19 Go, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
20 teaching them to observe all things whatever I commanded you.
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
The nice thing about scripture is that the interpretation is God's. No man can change that by making their own assertions or their own decrees. Since God is the one who inspires the true believer, a child of God can rest and rejoice in it being true. Jesus healed a blind man:
"Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
The nice thing about scripture is that the interpretation is God's. No man can change that by making their own assertions or their own decrees. Since God is the one who inspires the true believer, a child of God can rest and rejoice in it being true. Jesus healed a blind man:
"Then again called they the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give God the praise: we know that this man is a sinner. He answered and said, Whether he be a sinner or no, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. Then said they to him again, What did he to thee? how opened he thine eyes? He answered them, I have told you already, and ye did not hear: wherefore would ye hear it again? will ye also be his disciples? Then they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spake unto Moses: as for this fellow, we know not from whence he is. The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him? And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee. And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Unfortunately, advocates of the Bible/Scripture interpret as to what 'they want it to mean' according to their own thoughts and their own lifestyles. This being the case, Scripture and the Bible becomes our word, not God's word.
Even on this thread you can see people interpreting Scripture to accomodate their on philosophies.
Even on this thread you can see people interpreting Scripture to accomodate their on philosophies.
